"shall" and "will" for 18th century readers: interchangeable?

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Kooyeen  #385116  Wed, 27 Jun 07 11:23 PM
Hi everyone,
I've always wondered what "shall" means to an American. Will Americans always take it as "will"? or "should"? Smile [:)]

  
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CalifJim  #385155  Thu, 28 Jun 07 03:44 AM
"should" in first person questions and also "let's" if first person plural -- and various others (see below).
"must" / "will" in legalistic contexts.
"will" otherwise.

Shall I make a list? = Should I make a list? = Would you like me to make a list? = How about if I make a list; is that OK with you?
Shall we get started?  = Should we get started? = Let's get started, is that OK with you? = How about if we get started?

The undersigned shall pay the amount of $100,000 at the end of the loan term.
=  must pay

I shall do it no matter what the objections, and I shall probably live to regret it.
= will do / will live  [It is really impossible to exaggerate how extremely rare this usage is in AmE.]

CJ




  
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Intelligent Freak  #385211  Thu, 28 Jun 07 07:51 AM

I have always thought of "shall" as kind of a combination of should and will, which made it mildly obligatory though freewill. Below is a context I got from an online dictionary.

    "Shall has some use in all persons, chiefly in formal writing or speaking, to express determination: I shall return. We shall overcome. Shall also occurs in the language of laws and directives: All visitors shall observe posted regulations. Most educated native users of American English do not follow the textbook rule in making a choice between shall and will."

-----Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006

  
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Intelligent Freak  #385212  Thu, 28 Jun 07 07:54 AM
After reading CJ's post, I must say it depends upon the usage. Smile [:)]
  
Teleostomi  #385251  Thu, 28 Jun 07 09:13 AM
The only common
occurrence of "shall" with "I" and "we" is in questions:
    Shall I
do it now?
The alternative "Will I do it now?", is also possible but in British
English tends to be regional rather than general usage.

I remember it's Irish English where "Will I do it now?" is OK.

To make clear the above usage, my teacher then went on to explain that General MacArthur was trying to be emphatic by saying, "I shall return", when he should have used "will" to be emphatic (18th Century style).

That's part of the reason why I couldn't remember the rule!

Which does "shall" in the song "We shall overcome." mean, "simple future" or "one's determination"?
If it's used in MacArthur's sense, it's "one's determination."
If it's used in traditional British English sense, it's "simple future."
But it's American song, created around the turn of the 20th century. It was originally "We will overcome." (see Wikipedia article)
Then, it's altered to the phrasing "We shall overcome."

  
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Marius Hancu  #385289  Thu, 28 Jun 07 11:19 AM
 CalifJim wrote:
Are they interchangeable?

Yes.  There would be no change of meaning had they been:

If you won't lend me a guide, I shall have to stay here.
I feel I will not rest if I go to bed.


CJ
I do not think this is valid in 18th century BrE, which the original posting was about.
  
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Teleostomi  #386087  Sat, 30 Jun 07 04:48 AM
Thanks! At least the author of the rewritten Wuthering Heights, those "shall" and "will" were un-interchangeable.
  
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