"shall" and "will" for 18th century readers: interchangeable?

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Teleostomi

#384768 Wed, 27 Jun 07 09:29 AM

In Wuthering Heights I met with the following sentences, in which "shall" and "will" are used in a manner I can't understand if they are interchangeable. Are they interchangeable?

Wuthering Heights (rewritten for children)

(1) If you won't lend me a guide, I will have to stay here.
(2) I feel I shall not rest if I go to bed.

Teleostomi

Joined on Sat, Jun 10 2006

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Intelligent Freak

#384784 Wed, 27 Jun 07 10:37 AM

One of the gurus, i think it was CJ, answered this already... Don't worry, i'll try to find that one for you... I just couldn't vividdly remember the exact words and it's kinda loooooooong but verrrry informative explanation he gave us... I'll try to find it.. i'll post the source here, ok!

The only thing I remember is Mister Micawber's answer that "shall" is usually used for threats...

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Intelligent Freak

#384787 Wed, 27 Jun 07 10:43 AM

Ok, I got it but I don't know how to put the link here so i'll just paste the context here. This was given by CalifJim as response to the subject "Conditional with Modal Verbs"...

Strictly speaking, the modals are not tensed. However, they developed historically from tensed verbs. Each group below shows a "historical present / past" pair.

can / could
shall / should
will / would
may / might
must - not paired

In modern English, any of these can be used in a single clause sentence, but when it occurs in just one of two or more clauses in the same sentence, it needs to be matched correctly with the tense in the other clause.

Typically, when the accompanying clause is an "if" clause, the historical present tense forms go with present tense verbs, and historical past tense forms go with past tense verbs. However, "could" and "might", meaning "may" ("it is possible"), can be used with present tense verbs (as well as with past tense verbs). "should" has lost most of its force as a past tense and is better thought of as a present tense form in modern English, meaning "it is advisable". ("shall" is the least used of the modals shown above.) The result of all these historical changes is that in modern English we have far more choices in sentences with a present point of view than in those with a past point of view.

With this in mind we have:

If she has [present] time, she [can, could, (shall), should, will, may, might, must] go to the party. [not "would']

If she had [past] time, she [could, would, might] go to the party. [not "should"]

For reported speech we have the pairs:

He says that he [can, could, (shall), should, will, would, may, might, must] go to the party.

He said that he [could, could, (shall), should, would, would, might, might, must] go to the party.

Note how "can", "will", and "may" are restricted to the present, and the corresponding forms "could", "would", and "might" are used to report "can" or "could", "will" or "would", or "may" or "might" in the past.

CJ

To Wuthering Heights , I hope I was able to help.

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Teleostomi

#384793 Wed, 27 Jun 07 10:54 AM

Yes, I agree 100% that CJ's answer there is perfect and extremely useful, but it's not relevant here.

My question was whether "shall" and "will" used in the sentences are interchangeable or not. Did the author chose one against another?

Teleostomi

Anonymous

#384839 Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:21 PM

(1) If you won't lend me a guide, I will have to stay here. I think this shows certainty, one of the usages of will.

(2) I feel I shall not rest if I go to bed. The shall is natural for future in BrE in the 1st person.

The roles don't seem to be interchangeable in these two sentences, in BrE.

Anonymous

Marius Hancu

#384860 Wed, 27 Jun 07 12:43 PM

The above was me posting anonymously, sorry Smile [:)]

Another explanation for using will in (1) is strong determination, but I feel that in this case is certainty we're dealing with.

See:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shall?view=uk

which is BrE.

If you change (1) to:

(1a) If you won't lend me a guide, I shall have to stay here. This shows obligation.

Marius Hancu

Joined on Wed, Apr 26 2006

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Bokeh

#384873 Wed, 27 Jun 07 01:09 PM

Hi Teleostomi,

According to "Everyday Grammar - Oxford - ISBN 0-19-280116-3":

will/shall
Sometimes it is not clear whether one should use "shall" or "will".
The rule of traditional grammar is as follows:

Normally use "shall" with "I" and "we". Use will with all other persons.
Reverse this for emphasis, as in this famous example: "You will do it and nobody shall help you

Increasingly, however, "will" has become common in all uses.
Indeed "shall" is by far the least commomon of all the modal
auxiliary verbs: for every occasion where "shall"is used in
conversation, "will" is used fourteen times. The only common
occurrence of "shall" with "I" and "we" is in questions:
Shall I do it now?
The alternative "Will I do it now?", is also possible but in British
English tends to be regional rather than general usage.

Bokeh

Joined on Sun, Mar 18 2007

Spain

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Grammar, Verbs, Conversations, Auxiliaries, British English

Philip

#385014 Wed, 27 Jun 07 04:21 PM

Bokeh wrote:
Hi Teleostomi,

According to "Everyday Grammar - Oxford - ISBN 0-19-280116-3":

will/shall
Sometimes it is not clear whether one should use "shall" or "will".
The rule of traditional grammar is as follows:

Normally use "shall" with "I" and "we". Use will with all other persons.
Reverse this for emphasis, as in this famous example: "You will do it and nobody shall help you

Increasingly, however, "will" has become common in all uses.
Indeed "shall" is by far the least commomon of all the modal
auxiliary verbs: for every occasion where "shall"is used in
conversation, "will" is used fourteen times. The only common
occurrence of "shall" with "I" and "we" is in questions:
Shall I do it now?
The alternative "Will I do it now?", is also possible but in British
English tends to be regional rather than general usage.

That's the simple explanation I learned many, many years ago. I don't think the same distinction is made much any more in AmEng except in the most erudite situations.

[To make clear the above usage, my teacher then went on to explain that General MacArthur was trying to be emphatic by saying, "I shall return", when he should have used "will" to be emphatic (18th Century style).]

Philip

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CalifJim

#385110 Wed, 27 Jun 07 10:41 PM

Are they interchangeable?

Yes. There would be no change of meaning had they been:

If you won't lend me a guide, I shall have to stay here.
I feel I will not rest if I go to bed.

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,964)

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