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Anderew    919752 Wed, 26 May 04 05:30 AM

"We already know that the grammatical terminology for English is based primarily on the grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less that satisfactory."

Yes, that is the shibboleth... but can you think of any examples besides the split infinitive? Didn't think so. The truth is, English grammar has very little Latin influence. In this case it is completely irrelevant: adverbial clauses are called adverbial clauses because they have the same function as an adverb. If an adverbial clause could be replaced by a single word, that word would be an adverb.
Mike Lyle    919930 Wed, 26 May 04 10:48 AM

"I don't really like the characterizing of conditional clauses as adverbial, either. Perhaps it's a matter of taste."

"They function as adverbs."

That's one interpretation, and I don't happen to be convinced of its necessity. As I say, perhaps it's a matter of taste.
CyberCypher    919932 Wed, 26 May 04 11:04 AM

Anderew wrote on 25 May 2004:
"We already know that the grammatical terminology for English is based primarily on the grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less that satisfactory."

"Yes, that is the shibboleth... but can you think of any examples besides the split infinitive?"

Didn't you read Dylan's latest post? We don't have split infinitives in English, and, I've read, that there are no split infinitives in Latin because infinitives are all single words in Latin: "It is worth noting that it is impossible to split an infinitive in Latin, since the Latin infinitive is a single word."
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Split infinitive
I don't remember my Latin well enough to know about that, though. and there is a self-proclaimed expert on Latin on the Web who claims that most Latin verbs have 6 infinitives, at least three of which are two words:
(quote}
Most verbs have six infinitives:

1. Present Active
2. Present Passive
3. Perfect Active
4. Perfect Passive
5. Future Active
6. Future Passive (rare)

First Conjugation
(Present Active) amare (love)
(Pres. Passive) amari
(Perf. Act.) amavisse
(Perf. Pass.) amatus esse
(Fut. Act.) amaturus esse
(Fut. Pass.) amatum iri
(/quote)
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/latin/qt/latininfinitive.htm
"Didn't think so. The truth is, English grammar has very little Latin influence."

Just to reassure you that your knowledge of grammatical terminology and the facts of English grammar is flawless, I point out the following etymology from W3NID:
Main Entry:1adverb
Function:noun
Inflected Form:-s
Etymology:Middle French adverbe, from Latin adverbium (translation of Greek ***, literally, that which is said afterwards), from ad- + -verbium (from verbum word, verb) * more at EPIRRHEMA, WORD

And to add to that, I direct you to the following Web pages, which have a few words about the non-existent adverbs of Latin:

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Latin-Adverbs.html

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/latin/p/latinadverbs.htm

and after reading a little about these words, you can tell me again how little English grammar has been influenced by the *terminology* created by philologists for Latin grammar. I made a very specific claim. Let's review it, shall we? Quoting myself from a few lines above

"We already know that the grammatical terminology for English is based primarily on the grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less tha(n) satisfactory."
Notice that the 6th and 7th words of my sentence are "grammatical terminology", and the claim made in the sentence is that the *terminology* used for English grammar is mostly derived from the terminology used for Latin grammar, *not* that Latin grammar has had any influence on English grammar, the straw-man argument you are trying to saddle me with. Please be precise and not deceptive when you make claims about what other people have said. Eithe3r you do not understand the difference between my claim and your inaccurate (false) paraphrase of my claim, or you are a deliberate misrepresenter. Or else you made an error of interpretation a difficult one to justify, though.

(quote from the ancienthistory.about.com site)
Adverbs as Particles: Adverbs, prepostions, conjunctions, and interjections are called particles. Adverbs in Latin, as in English, modify other words in the sentence, especially verbs. Adverbs also modify adjectives and other adverbs. In English, the ending "-ly," added to an adjective, makes it easy to identify many adverbs: He walked slowly - where slowly modifies the word walked, and where slow is the adjective.
Regular Formations of Adverbs from Adjectives:
In Latin, some adverbs are formed by adding an ending to an adjective. For first and second declension adjectives, a long -e replaces the ending. Instead of the adjective carus, -a, -um (dear), the adverb is care.
To adjectives from the third declension, ter is added. From the adjective fortis (brave), the adverb form is fortiter. The neuter accusative of some adjectives is also the adverb. Multum (many) becomes multum (much) as an adverb.
The formation of other adverbs is more complicated.

Some Adverbs of Time:
quando? when?
cum when
tum then
mox presently
iam already
dum while
iam pridem long ago
primum first
deinde next after
postremo finally
postquam as soon as
numquam never
saepe often
cotidie every day
nondum not yet
crebro frequently
pridie the day before
semper always
umqam ever
denique at last
Adverbs of Place:
hic here
huc hither
hinc from here
ibi there
eo thither, to there
illic there
quo whither
unde whence
ubi where
undique from everywhere
ibidem in the same place
eodem to the same place
quovis anywhere
usque all the way to
intro inwardly
nusquam nowhere
porro further on
citro to this side
Adverbs of Manner, Degree, or Cause:
quam how, as
tam so
quamvis however much
magis more
paene almost
valde greatly
cur why
quare why
ergo therefore
propterea because, on this account
ita so
sic so
ut as, how
vix hardly
Interrogative Particles:
whether: an, -ne, utrum, utrumne, num
whether not nonne, annon
whether at all numquid, ecquid
Negative Particles:
not non, haud, minime, ne, nec
lest ne
nor neque, nec
not only ... but also non modo ... verum/sed etiam not only not ... but not even non modo ... sed ne ... quidem not even ne ... quidem
if not si minus
so as not quo minus, quominus
why not? quin
Comparison of Adverbs: To form the comparative of an adverb (e.g. slower instead of slowly), take the neuter accusative of the adjectival form. There are also irregular comparative forms. The superlative is formed from the superlative of the adjective, ending in -e.

Source: Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar
"In this case it is completely irrelevant: adverbial clauses are called adverbial clauses because they have the same function as an adverb. If an adverbial clause could be replaced by a single word, that word would be an adverb."

Okay, Anderew. You are so anxious to demonstrate your grammatical expertise and claim the mantle of Master Grammarian that I'll give you the chance to demonstrate your brilliance. Please describe in **your own** 25 words or less *the* function of an adverb and in another 25 words or less *the* function of an adverbial clause of condition, either tentative (should-clause) or subjunctive (were-clause).

And then you can apologize to the group for being a puerile *** and a fraud to boot.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Robert Lieblich    920435 Wed, 26 May 04 11:19 PM

"We already know that the grammatical terminology for English is based primarily on the grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less that satisfactory."

"Yes, that is the shibboleth... but can you think of any examples besides the split infinitive?"

The complex "tense" structure of English, with labels taken from Latin, when most linguists agree that English has only two actual tenses present and simple past marked by their differing morphologies.
The case system for nouns and pronouns, grafted onto English despite the lack of any separate forms for nouns but the possessive, and with a separate nominative and accusative for a very few pronouns not to mention that the "wrong" case frequently appears because case forms carry little if any actual meaning. Have you even seen Eric Walker carry on at length about dative nouns and pronouns and other things that have no case markers in English? Another unsatisfactory attempt to graft the grammatical terminology of Latin onto English.

And then there's the "gerundive."
"Didn't think so. The truth is, English grammar has very little Latin influence."

English *syntax* the actual structuring of sentences by native speakers has very little Latin influence. English "grammar," viewed as the typological analysis of syntactical structures, has a lot of Latin influence. Or do you mean something different? If so, what?
"In this case it is completely irrelevant: adverbial clauses are called adverbial clauses because they have the same function as an adverb. If an adverbial clause could be replaced by a single word, that word would be an adverb."

I'll leave this one to Franke, who seems to have already taken a big bite out of it.
God, Andrew, you're ill-mannered.

Bob Lieblich
Getting a bit grumpy himself
CyberCypher    920588 Thu, 27 May 04 01:06 AM

Robert Lieblich wrote on 26 May 2004:

Thank you for pointing out all these borrowings, Bob. You have contributed a great deal to the Franke Knowledge Fund (hereinafter "FKF"). I will send you a certified receipt along with an IRS-certified verification of my non-profit status so that you can deduct this major contribution from next year's knowledge taxes. And when Ashcroft's agents corner you and ask about the shadowy Abu Franke Brigade and its plans for forthcoming deployment of its stockpiles of WMD (that's "Words of Mis-Description" and *not* what you might have initially believed it to mean) which surely must be hidden in a variable 4th- dimension wrinkle in the space-time continuum somewhere in the vicinity of NYC's Port Authority bus terminal tell 'em you don't know me, or that I am merely a wrinkle in cyberspace, or something equally plausible (clausible?).
"In this case it is completely irrelevant: adverbial clauses are ... by a single word, that word would be an adverb."

"I'll leave this one to Franke, who seems to have already taken a big bite out of it. God, Andrew, you're ill-mannered."

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
AB    920848 Thu, 27 May 04 07:53 AM

"Anderew wrote on 25 May 2004:"

"Yes, that is the shibboleth... but can you think of any examples besides the split infinitive?"

"Didn't you read Dylan's latest post? We don't have split infinitives in English, and, I've read, that there are no ... that it is impossible to split an infinitive in Latin, since the Latin infinitive is a single word." http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Split infinitive"

Yes, we all know the story. Did you notice that I said "BESIDES the split infintive"?
"Didn't think so. The truth is, English grammar has very little Latin influence."

"Just to reassure you that your knowledge of grammatical terminology and the facts of English grammar is flawless, I point ... the grammatical terminology for English is based primarily on the grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less tha(n) satisfactory.""

Don't play games, Franke. If you were simply pointing out the obvious fact that our grammar words are descended from Latin, then I wouldn't argue with you. That's a matter of simple etymology.
"Notice that the 6th and 7th words of my sentence are "grammatical terminology", and the claim made in the sentence ... mostly derived from the terminology used for Latin grammar, *not* that Latin grammar has had any influence on English grammar,"

Sorry, I would have to call *** on that one. We all know the argument you were making; it's been made countless times before; you were just reiterating it. The argument goes like this: the rules of Latin grammar were unfairly forced onto English by evil grammarians, and now English grammar is screwed up because it makes English conform to Latin rules. Bob Lieblich has provided some evidence for this argument, which I will respond to shortly.
Now I won't deny that English grammar has been hurt a little bit by Latin rules: the split infinitive taboo is one example. But I do think the reports of this effect have been greatly exaggerated. Now it is so commonplace that people like you, who have little knowledge of grammar, are crying "Latin!" at every turn.
But let me get back to the point: the designation of conditional clauses as adverbial has nothing to do with Latin grammar. Honestly, I don't even think you believed what you said; I think you were just trying to be nice to Mike Lyle:
AB
AB    920872 Thu, 27 May 04 08:42 AM

"The case system for nouns and pronouns, grafted onto English despite the lack of any separate forms for nouns but ... things that have no case markers in English? Another unsatisfactory attempt to graft the grammatical terminology of Latin onto English."

Are you forgetting that English once had all four cases? Maybe the offender is Old English rather than Latin. (But that kinda takes the fun out of it, huh?)
AB
CyberCypher    920901 Thu, 27 May 04 09:08 AM

AB wrote on 26 May 2004:
"CyberCypher wrote"

"Anderew wrote on 25 May 2004: Didn't you read Dylan's ... since the Latin infinitive is a single word." http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Split infinitive"

"Yes, we all know the story. Did you notice that I said "BESIDES the split infintive"?"

I noticed, but it meant nothing to me. Do you know if it's possible to split those three two-word Latin infinitives I posted here? Do you know that mnuch about Latin? I don't, but you are making the implicit claim that you are an expert on Latin grammar as well as English grammar. I know that Prof Lawler is, but are you, Anderew or Andrevv or whatever your name is? If you want anyone to believe your claim about the non- effect of Latin grammar on English grammar, then you will have to demonstrate your expertise and profound knowledge of the grammar of both languages. Until you can do that, AB, you are strictly talking through your hat.
"Just to reassure you that your knowledge of grammatical terminology ... grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less tha(n) satisfactory.""

"Don't play games, Franke. If you were simply pointing out the obvious fact that our grammar words are descended from Latin, then I wouldn't argue with you. That's a matter of simple etymology."

And where, pray tell, did you find evidence that I was pointing out anything but that? Please show me your evidence. I dare you to do that.
"Notice that the 6th and 7th words of my sentence ... that Latin grammar has had any influence on English grammar,"

"Sorry, I would have to call *** on that one."

What gives you the right or authority or anything else to "call *** on that one" (whatever "call *** on that one" might mean in idiomatic English)?
"We all know the argument you were making;"

I would say that we all do know the argument I was making because it was very simply stated. I won't repeat it.
"it's been made countless times before; you were just reiterating it."

I hope that you can prove this claim. You haven't done too well demonstrating that you have proof of any other claim you've made so far.
"The argument goes like this: the rules of Latin grammar were unfairly forced onto English by evil grammarians, and now English grammar is screwed up because it makes English conform to Latin rules."

I don't believe you, AB. I didn't say that. I reiterated no such argument. I made my own argument. I thanked Bob for stating something akin to what you say above, but I could not have made that argument because I either never knew it or I forgot it. Either way, you have come up with another straw man, so what you have to say is not worth paying attention to. You are arguing with what you wish I had said.
"Bob Lieblich has provided some evidence for this argument, which I will respond to shortly. Now I won't deny that ... it is so commonplace that people like you, who have little knowledge of grammar, are crying "Latin!" at every turn."

You pretend to know a lot more about me than you actually do. Say, does that make you "pretentious"? Well, never mind. You are about to demonstrate how pretentious you really are, and I say that without having read the rest of your post yet.
"But let me get back to the point: the designation of conditional clauses as adverbial has nothing to do with Latin grammar."

Please explain what it has to do with. You talk a lot but say very little.
"Honestly, I don't even think you believed what you said; I think you were just trying to be nice to Mike Lyle:"

Me? Be nice to Mike Lyle? Why would I want to do that? He's a friend of mine, yes, but if Mike makes a gaffe that I recognize, I will call him on it, just as he will call me on any gaffe I might make.

Ah, yes. I see what you are saying. You think that Mike made an error when he wrote the above sentences. Now, I know he doesn't much care for Quirk et al., but I'm sure he won't mind if I quote the following from Quirk et al. (7.46, p. 438):
"Because of its great heterogenity, the adverb class is the most nebulous and puzzling of the traditional word classes. Indeed, it is tempting to say simply that the adverb is an item that does not fit the definitions for other word classes (by which I understand Quirk et al. to be saying that the word-class "adverb" is something of a syntactic garbage can). As a consequence, some grammarians have removed several types of items from the class entirely, and established several additional classes rather than retain these as subsets within a single adverb class" (by which I understand Quirk et al. to be saying that "it's a matter of taste", if one can accept that "taste" is a synonym for "opinion" here).
Now, I did ask you to define "the adverb" in 25 words or less and to describe "the function of the adverb" in another 25 words or less, but I haven't seen any evidence that you have finished this assignment. I don't really have time to read the dozens and dozens and dozens of pages that Quirk et al. devote to discussing the various shapes and functions of adverbs, but you seem to have it all down in a nutshell somewhere inside your pea-brain, so please reveal the truth to all of us.
"We already know that the grammatical terminology for English is based primarily on the grammatical terminology of Latin and is, therefore, less that satisfactory."

I think that this statement is a perfectly reasonable and believable one, and I do believe that what I quoted from Quirk et al. above demonstrates it is also true. After all, AB, all the word classes we have in English have the same names as the word classes in Latin. But, unlike Prof Lawler (I don't really know if he would call himself an expert on Latin, but whenever he talks about Latin, he sure does seem to me to know his stuff cold, so I'm making what I believe to be a justifiable inference here) and other experts on Latin, I cannot tell you anything about the differences between Latin and English adverbs or whether the word-class "adverb" in Latin is also a typological garbage can.
But I am assuming from all your talk about your knowledge of English grammar and the effect of Latin grammar on English that you can tell us the truth about these issues. Please, Ab. We are all waiting for your expert opinions instead of your substanceless attacks.

You have been throwing sticks and stones in a feeble attempt to break my bones, my boy, but so far the only thing you have done is demonstrate that I was unable to identify a conditional clause beginning with "should" as an adverbial clause. It's time for you to tell me where else I have erred. I don't believe your straw-man argument above, and I don't believe that you have any idea what you're talking about when you make all these claims about English and Latin. I, at least, admit what I don't know, and I usually can prove that I do know what I say I know. I can provide documentary support for my arguments, unlike yourself, who seem restricted to the number of metaphorical db in your ill-mannered prose.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
CyberCypher    920917 Thu, 27 May 04 09:17 AM

AB wrote on 27 May 2004:
"The case system for nouns and pronouns, grafted onto English ... attempt to graft the grammatical terminology of Latin onto English."

"Are you forgetting that English once had all four cases? Maybe the offender is Old English rather than Latin. (But that kinda takes the fun out of it, huh?)"

Is this what you meant about dealing later with what Bob said about Latin and English? Tell, us, AB, do you also profess to be expert enough on German grammar to know whether the syntactic analysis of that language is reasonably based on the realities of German or whether it, too, was forced into an ill-fitting Latin bed?
What say you, Rey?

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
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