Absalom

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x.mehrdad  #100616  Tue, 17 May 05 09:30 PM
Hello everybody
This is a passage from Absalom, Absalom by Faulkner, and I have some difficulties to grasp the whole content, would you mind to give me a hand, and help me to understand it:


‘-Henry, the provincial, the clown almost, given to instinctive and violent action rather than to thinking, ratiocination, who may have been conscious that his fierce provincial’s pride in his sister’s virginity was a false quantity which must incorporate in itself an inability to endure in order to be precious, to exist, and so much depend upon its loss, absence, to have existed at all. In fact, perhaps this is the pure and perfect incest: the brother realizing that the sister’s virginity must be destroyed in order to have existed at all, taking that virginity in the person of brother- in-law, the man whom he would be if he could become, metamorphose into, the lover, the husband; by whom he would be despoiled, choose for despoiler, if he could become, metamorphose into the sister, the mistress, the bride.’

Any help would be appreciated. Thank You

  
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YoungCalifornian  #100624  Tue, 17 May 05 11:07 PM
That's some very dense reading, and I've never read Absalom, Absalom!, so please consider that as I attempt to summarize this passage. As you may wel understand, is a description of a character, Henry, and apparantly, his perspective on his sister's sexuality.

"Henry, the provincial, the clown almost, given to instinctive and violent action rather than to thinking, ratiocination..."

Henry is man who tends to act before he thinks. He is unsophisticaed and will respond emotionally before considering the consequences of his actions.

"...who may have been conscious that his fierce provincial’s pride in his sister’s virginity was a false quantity which must incorporate in itself an inability to endure in order to be precious, to exist, and so much depend upon its loss, absence, to have existed at all."

Henry may have been aware that his immature and unsophisticated pride in his sister's virginity was a foolish characteristic of his. What marks virginity as a precious quality is its inability to edure forever. It is expected that every girl will, at some point in her life, lose her virginity. Therefore, virginity must be lost in order for a virgin to be special.

"In fact, perhaps this is the pure and perfect incest: the brother realizing that the sister’s virginity must be destroyed in order to have existed at all, taking that virginity in the person of brother- in-law, the man whom he would be if he could become, metamorphose into, the lover, the husband; by whom he would be despoiled, choose for despoiler, if he could become, metamorphose into the sister, the mistress, the bride."

Henry then realizes that for him to take his sister's virginity himself would be a "pure and perfect incest" in his mind. Other than the fact that he would then take on the role of his brother-in-law, his sister's husband, I can't quite make sense of the rest of the passage.

Whew... I hope that helpd.





  
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x.mehrdad  #100735  Wed, 18 May 05 06:59 AM
Thank You Young Californian, first, I must say that 'much' in third line is a typo and it is'must', even though Idon't understand how the pride is considered as a quantity, how this quantity incorporates an inability to endure, and how this inability makes it precious and becomes the reason of its existence, finaly why so much depend upon its loss, and 'to have existed at all' refers to virginity or Henry's pride? this is just to start with.Cheers
  
serkanma  #100743  Wed, 18 May 05 08:54 AM

(irrelevant text deleted)

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Miche  #100784  Wed, 18 May 05 11:22 AM
Hi, x.mehrdad,

Let me try the first sentence.

Here quantity means property/attribute, something you can measure and compare.

However, this quantity is false, it contains a contradiction: it "incorporates in itself an inability to endure". Virginity does not (as a rule) exist forever. If it existed forever, if there was no end to it, it would not be precious - all women would be virgins then. Think, it's the same with good & evil - you could not treasure the good if there was no evil.

Finally, "to have existed at all" refers to virginity. If virginity was not lost (as a rule), it would not exist as a notion, as a term. That is how its very existence depends on its loss.
  
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Miche  #100800  Wed, 18 May 05 11:56 AM
Sentence two:

Here I think the incest (sexual relations between very closely related people) is not physical; it consists in "the brother REALIZING that his sister's virginity must be destroyed" for the reasons mentioned (to have existed at all).

The brother imagines he is the husband (his own brother-in-law), who takes his sister's virginity (that if he could metamorphose into the husband) - and this is incest (in his mind).

Then the husband is described through the eyes of the sister (the brother thinks what it would be like if he could metamorphose into the sister). In this case the husband despoils his sister, she chooses the husband for despoiler.
  
x.mehrdad  #100813  Wed, 18 May 05 12:41 PM
Hello Miche,

Thanks for your effort, but what I don't understand is why the pride is considered as a quantity, and does Faulkner mean that since the pride(false quantity) depends upon the sister's virginity, and would be lost with its loss, it(the pride)should not exist at all?

  
Miche  #100833  Wed, 18 May 05 02:23 PM
I'll give it another try. Smile [:)]

There is a very good word for quantity (mathematical quantity) in my native language and it seems easy to me to figure it out but I find it difficult to explain it in English. Just try to think of quantity not as an amount but as a feature. As YoungCalifornian put it - intentionally or not - as QUALITY.

And yes, I believe this is what Faulkner means. This pride (in his sister's virginity) is a false one; when his sister loses her virginity, he will no longer have a reason for pride. This is the actual controversy in his pride.

Does it make sense now?
  
x.mehrdad  #100880  Wed, 18 May 05 05:08 PM
Hello again,

I am not convinced that he is using 'quantity' instead of quality(this is Faulkner), and secondly I believe that, here Faulkner means Henry's pride must depend upon the loss(which is durable and permanent ) of the virginity to find a reason for its existence and not on the virginity itsef which is perishable, but I am not sure.
  
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