accents

Cvilla wrote:

SillyMe wrote:   "You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"   "You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?" Is the difference between those two an accent matter, or a pronunciation matter? Neither. The intonation is the key. You have used an intonation stress to emphasise those words in the sentences. It has nothing to do with an accent. A lot of languages have the same mechanism for this purpose. People rarely speak in a monotonic way. They need an intonation to emphasise their ideas. You missed it, my friend. Intonation is part of an accent. And those specific intonation patterns I just showed you can be found in some languages, not all (you won't find it in Spanish, for example). Those patterns have a specific purpose, so there's reason for learning at least the "basics" of an accent.

I believe that I haven't missed anything. I think that you don't understand the concept clearly.I agree that (nothing new here) an intonation is one of the most important part of any accent. But in your example it is related to an empasis of  some  particular words to add a bit different meaning to your phrase (it is NOT an accent!).  Usually it is done by changing  a  pitch  of  your  voice at the right place. So, it has nothing to do with a concrete accent as we don't allways need to emphasize something, do we? But an intonation is used in every phrase. Every native speaker will do this if it is needed. On the other hand accents imply certain intonation patterns which add some kind of "melody" to the speech.
For example the Irish accents are characterised by frequent fluctuation of the pitch. To emphasisize some word an Irishman (like all other people) will just inrease the pitch of his voice to draw your attention to this word (He will change his usual intonation pattern). So, to conclude all accent have their own intonation patterns if you need to emphasize something (that is your example) you need to inrease a pitch at this place despite the accent you speak with.
Let's forget  what  I've just  said. I've got a question: who needs this if nobody uses this? Accents are totally useless, since everybody uses his own pattern of speech and it is nearly impossible to learn how to speak with "right" intonation if you are quite old. Moreover nobody will be able to understand you anyway if you succeed, because not all people can hear and understand intonation. International English is just different from British and American English.
I hope you will get it.
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

I believe that I haven't missed anything. I think that you don't understand the concept clearly.I agree that (nothing new here) an intonation is one of the most important part of any accent. But in your example it is related to an empasis of  some  particular words to add a bit different meaning to your phrase (it is NOT an accent!).  Usually it is done by changing  a  pitch  of  your  voice at the right place. So, it has nothing to do with a concrete accent as we don't allways need to emphasize something, do we? But an intonation is used in every phrase. Every native speaker will do this if it is needed. On the other hand accents imply certain intonation patterns which add some kind of "melody" to the speech. For example the Irish accents are characterised by frequent fluctuation of the pitch. To emphasisize some word an Irishman (like all other people) will just inrease the pitch of his voice to draw your attention to this word (He will change his usual intonation pattern). So, to conclude all accent have their own intonation patterns if you need to emphasize something (that is your example) you need to inrease a pitch at this place despite the accent you speak with.

Like I said, examples like that very specific one, which happens a lot in English, can't be found in other languages... because of the accent. You are trying to be even more "specific" by targeting specifc accents within the accent pool of the English language, but that scenario I describe exists in English because the accent allows for it. Again, you don't find it in some other language because those "lack" that specific pattern in their accents.

Anonymous wrote:

Let's forget  what  I've just  said. I've got a question: who needs this if nobody uses this? Accents are totally useless, since everybody uses his own pattern of speech and it is nearly impossible to learn how to speak with "right" intonation if you are quite old. Moreover nobody will be able to understand you anyway if you succeed, because not all people can hear and understand intonation. International English is just different from British and American English. I hope you will get it. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Nobody uses what? Things like the example I gave you or accents in general? If nobody uses accents, how come do they exist??? Accents aren't useless, my friend; you're simply trying to fight something you can't.

And maybe you're right, maybe it's almost "impossible" to speak with the "right" intonation (let's say "accent", better) if you are quite old. But if you succeed, people will understand you... There's no point in saying that nobody will understand if you succeed; I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. I succeeded at learning a "standard" american accent, and americans understand everything I say. And I have seen a few people succeeding at it too, with the best results.

Now, there is no "international" English which is differenciated from American and British English. And if it existed, that International English would have a accent of its own... You can't escape that, because the accent is defined by intonation patterns, pronunciation, inflection, and other factors that are always present when people speak. We don't speak like robot.... and even there we can talk about a "robotic accent," like "he speaks like a robot."

I just can't see why you are so obsessed in fighting accents. They have existed, they exist, and they will exist.

Cvilla wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I believe that I haven't missed anything. I think that you don't understand the concept clearly.I agree that (nothing new here) an intonation is one of the most important part of any accent. But in your example it is related to an empasis of  some  particular words to add a bit different meaning to your phrase (it is NOT an accent!).  Usually it is done by changing  a  pitch  of  your  voice at the right place. So, it has nothing to do with a concrete accent as we don't allways need to emphasize something, do we? But an intonation is used in every phrase. Every native speaker will do this if it is needed. On the other hand accents imply certain intonation patterns which add some kind of "melody" to the speech. For example the Irish accents are characterised by frequent fluctuation of the pitch. To emphasisize some word an Irishman (like all other people) will just inrease the pitch of his voice to draw your attention to this word (He will change his usual intonation pattern). So, to conclude all accent have their own intonation patterns if you need to emphasize something (that is your example) you need to inrease a pitch at this place despite the accent you speak with. Like I said, examples like that very specific one, which happens a lot in English, can't be found in other languages... because of the accent. You are trying to be even more "specific" by targeting specifc accents within the accent pool of the English language, but that scenario I describe exists in English because the accent allows for it. Again, you don't find it in some other language because those "lack" that specific pattern in their accents.  Anonymous wrote: Let's forget  what  I've just  said. I've got a question: who needs this if nobody uses this? Accents are totally useless, since everybody uses his own pattern of speech and it is nearly impossible to learn how to speak with "right" intonation if you are quite old. Moreover nobody will be able to understand you anyway if you succeed, because not all people can hear and understand intonation. International English is just different from British and American English. I hope you will get it. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Nobody uses what? Things like the example I gave you or accents in general? If nobody uses accents, how come do they exist??? Accents aren't useless, my friend; you're simply trying to fight something you can't. And maybe you're right, maybe it's almost "impossible" to speak with the "right" intonation (let's say "accent", better) if you are quite old. But if you succeed, people will understand you... There's no point in saying that nobody will understand if you succeed; I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. I succeeded at learning a "standard" american accent, and americans understand everything I say. And I have seen a few people succeeding at it too, with the best results. Now, there is no "international" English which is differenciated from American and British English. And if it existed, that International English would have a accent of its own... You can't escape that, because the accent is defined by intonation patterns, pronunciation, inflection, and other factors that are always present when people speak. We don't speak like robot.... and even there we can talk about a "robotic accent," like "he speaks like a robot." I just can't see why you are so obsessed in fighting accents. They have existed, they exist, and they will exist.

Ok, I see you didn't get it. I will repeat it again. Accents and intonation aren't the same things. You can emphasize something without speaking a perfect accent, let's say American one. Just rise a pitch of your voice at the right place.  This doesn't depend on a concrete accent, it is more matter of communication. Perhaps, you learnt these "tricks" at a pronunciation class, therefore you associate them only with an accent. Most learners are unaware about these topics, so most likely they will not understand you.
Believe me that international English exists, but of course not in the USA. Italians, Spaniards, Russians all have their own version of English. I'M NOT OBSESSED with fighting of accents. I just want to show that their sdudying by foreign learners are totally useless. It is because: it is extremely HARD (if you succeeded it doesn't mean that everyone will be able to do that) to tune your pronunciation to the correct one, there are not so many  native speakers in the international environment; you are surrounded by various foreign accents, which you need to understand somehow, these people have various levels of English skills, they simply will not understand you if you say something like "I wanna", but you desperately need to communicate with them. Of course if you live in the terrarium like the USA then it is a different story. So, I just want to remove all obstacles in communication with everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Ok, I see you didn't get it. I will repeat it again. Accents and intonation aren't the same things. You can emphasize something without speaking a perfect accent, let's say American one. Just rise a pitch of your voice at the right place.  This doesn't depend on a concrete accent, it is more matter of communication. Perhaps, you learnt these "tricks" at a pronunciation class, therefore you associate them only with an accent. Most learners are unaware about these topics, so most likely they will not understand you.

You're right, intonation and accent aren't the same thing. But that's because intonation is part of the accent. Like I said, other accents don't use a "trick" like the one given in the example I posted before. Additional, if you do not know how to raise your pitch, and where to raise it, you may be communicating something totally different from what you originally intented. For instance, people who often emphasize the pronoun "I" are seen as arrogant snotty people... Believe it or not. And maybe the foreigner does not know about it, and makes this "little" mistake, thus been seen by others in a bad way.

Anonymous wrote:

Believe me that international English exists, but of course not in the USA. Italians, Spaniards, Russians all have their own version of English. I'M NOT OBSESSED with fighting of accents. I just want to show that their sdudying by foreign learners are totally useless. It is because: it is extremely HARD (if you succeeded it doesn't mean that everyone will be able to do that) to tune your pronunciation to the correct one, there are not so many  native speakers in the international environment; you are surrounded by various foreign accents, which you need to understand somehow, these people have various levels of English skills, they simply will not understand you if you say something like "I wanna", but you desperately need to communicate with them. Of course if you live in the terrarium like the USA then it is a different story. So, I just want to remove all obstacles in communication with everyone.

Please guide to any reliable good documentation on this "international" English you're talking about... I have never heard of it.

Now I think I get your point; however, a "common" accent is better for everybody in cases like the one you mention. If people get used to a "common" accent be it American, British, or any other they will have better chances of undestanding each other; instead of having portuguese, german, greek, japanese, thai, indian, arabian, and other bunch of people from many nationalities trying to undestand so many different accents (which, by the way, make their English way harder to undestand than trying to understand a native accent).