I've always wondered + past or present

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Kooyeen

#397022 Thu, 26 Jul 07 04:56 PM

Hi,
I've always wondered if I have/had to put a past or a present tense after structures like "I've always wondered..."
Other examples:

I've always wondered how old Chris is/was. How old is he? Do you know?
So, Chris is 25? I've always wondered how old Chris is/was.
Did you see Mark's last goal? I've always said he is/was the best player around. Don't you think the same?
I've always wanted to know how many languages Betty know/knew. It seems she knows a lot... Do you know?
So, Betty speaks 5 languages? Wow, amazing. I've always wanted to know how many languages Betty know/knew.

I usually tend to use a past tense.
Thanks Smile [:)]

Kooyeen

Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005

Italy

Senior Member (3,962)

If you don't have a sense of humor already, it's about time you buy one.

CalifJim

#397126 Thu, 26 Jul 07 10:00 PM

I've always wanted to know how many languages Betty knows/knew. It seems she knows a lot... Do you know?
So, Betty speaks 5 languages? Wow, amazing. I've always wanted to know how many languages Betty knows/knew.

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,914)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

CalifJim

#397128 Thu, 26 Jul 07 10:04 PM

<<I usually tend to use a past tense.>>

Me too.

-- after have/has always [wondered / said] especially.
After have/has always wanted to know -- either way seems fine in your examples.

CJ

CalifJim

Past tenses, Tenses

Kooyeen

#397153 Thu, 26 Jul 07 11:07 PM

Thanks Jim, hmm, this is confusing though.

I was thinking some more about this, and I thought that this was just another kind of reported speech. So, I thought I could use either present or past tenses, depending on where I want to put the emphasis. For example, I'd usually say "I('ve) always said you were the best player!", because you focus on what you "said" in the past. I even thought that the present was better when you actually don't know about something, and the past when you find out what you wanted to know:
- I've always wondered if penguins can fly. I don't know.
- Interesting... so penguins can't fly. I've always wondered if penguins could fly.

But if there isn't such a difference...

I've always wondered who deletes the posts here in Englishforums. <--- would you say this is not very good?
I've always wondered who deleted the posts here in Englishforums.

I've always wondered if I can place some adverbs at the beginning of a sentence. <--- would you say this is not very good?
I've always wondered if I could place some adverbs at the beginning of a sentence.

This subject seems pretty complicated to me. Thanks. Smile [:)]

Kooyeen

Adverbs, Past tenses, Tenses, Verbs

CalifJim

#397195 Fri, 27 Jul 07 05:05 AM

OK. I think I've finally understood the game you're playing. Smile [:)]

I'm the native informant (or whoever of us answers); you're the descriptive grammarian!
(By the way, the standard saying among you descriptive grammarians is: Never trust a native informant!)
Fun game, though.

- I've always wondered if penguins can fly. I don't know. I'd have said could fly.
- Interesting... so penguins can't fly. I've always wondered if penguins could fly. OK.

But if there isn't such a difference...

I've always wondered who deletes the posts here in Englishforums. <--- would you say this is not very good? Sounds perfect to me.
I've always wondered who deleted the posts here in Englishforums. Doesn't sound as good; sounds like a failed attempt to say wondered who used to delete the posts ...

I've always wondered if I can place some adverbs at the beginning of a sentence. <--- would you say this is not very good? I would say could place.
I've always wondered if I could place some adverbs at the beginning of a sentence. OK.
___________

I don't envy you the task of rationalizing this data into your forthcoming publication Descriptive Grammar of the English As She is Spoken. But if I might give you a hint (and no, I'm not sure this hint will take you anywhere very interesting, let alone profitable), consider the difference between repeated events (habits), individual events, and 'mere potentialities' expressed by stative verbs (know, be, can).

CJ

CalifJim

Adverbs, Difference between, Grammar, Stative verbs, Verbs

Kooyeen

#397440 Fri, 27 Jul 07 07:49 PM

Oh my, this is so confusing. So this subject IS complicated, indeed.

Thanks a lot, I think what you said makes sense ---> consider the difference between repeated events (habits), individual events, and 'mere potentialities' expressed by stative verbs (know, be, can).

But I think the rule must be simpler... I mean, native speakers trust their instinct, I'd like to trust my istinct too, but I don't have one yet.
Ok, I've been thinking for quite a while, I think it's a mess. Hmm, maybe I've found a solution! (I keep on changing my mind, I'm thinking while I'm posting). Solution:

After "wonder" we usually backshift in reported speech, since it's a verb that is strongly related to a situation or point in time, like "know" and "think" (--> I wondered if you were...).
Now, after "I've always wondered" we usually backshift too, unless the sentence is ambiguous. And the sentence is ambiguous when the situation can change, the situation is not fixed. However, I'm still thinking, and I'm not sure anymore... But if this is true, then:

I've always wondered how many languages you speak/spoke. Do you know Chinese? <-- should be "spoke", because if you speak a language, you can usually speak it whenever you want, it's not time-dependent.
I've always wondered who is/was the member that keeps/kept sending spam. They keep sending me strange emails. <--- should be "is" and "keeps", because this is time-dependent. The member sends spam now, but they haven't always be sending it, and they won't sent spam forever.
I've always wondered who deletes/deleted the post here in EF <--- "deleted" because mods aren't always the same, and they haven't always be the same.
I've always wondered who will/would be the next president. <--- "would", the next president is not going to change, because we are just talking about an expectation.
I've always wondered how many memebers there are/were in this forum. <--- "are", because it's time-dependent, new memebers sign up every day.

If this doesn't work, I really don't know what to do... Smile [:)]

, or rather Sad [:(]

Kooyeen

Difference between, Stative verbs, Verbs

CalifJim

#397458 Fri, 27 Jul 07 08:52 PM

native speakers trust their instinct, I'd like to trust my instinct too, but I don't have one yet.

Instinct, if that's the right word, is developed through the imitation of native speakers, not through logic. So you'll have this instinct once you have had daily (observant) contact with native speakers for four or five years. (Logic is just a cheap substitute for the real thing!)

I keep on changing my mind, I'm thinking while I'm posting

I can tell you from personal experience that this is what is called "a really bad idea"! Smile [:)]

I've always wondered how many languages you speak/spoke. Do you know Chinese? <-- should be "spoke", because if you speak a language, you can usually speak it whenever you want, it's not time-dependent. you is the dead give-away to me. You're talking directly to someone right in front of you. I'd say speak, not spoke. spoke doesn't seem entirely wrong, though.
I've always wondered who is/was the member that keeps/kept sending spam. They keep sending me strange emails. <--- should be "is" and "keeps", because this is time-dependent. The member sends spam now, but they haven't always be sending it, and they won't sent spam forever. I'd say who the member is that keeps sending (me) spam. Or, simpler, wondered who keeps sending spam.
I've always wondered who deletes/deleted the posts here in EF <--- "deleted" because mods aren't always the same, and they haven't always be the same. I'd have said deletes.
I've always wondered who will/would be the next president. <--- "would", the next president is not going to change, because we are just talking about an expectation. will sounds very strange to me here. I'd definitely use would if I had to choose. The whole sentence is a bit weird to my ear. I would probably have generated one of these:

I wonder who the next president will be.
[I'm / I've been] wondering who the next president will be.
[I was / I'd been] wondering who the next president would be.
I [have / had] always wondered who the next president would be.

I've always wondered how many memebers there are/were in this forum. <--- "are", because it's time-dependent, new memebers sign up every day. I would have said were.

CJ

CalifJim

Kooyeen

#397514 Fri, 27 Jul 07 10:08 PM

There were a lot of mistakes in my post. I wanted to write a thing and I wrote another.

Thanks a lot. I can clearly see that there are no strange rules, it's just a kind of reported speech with a very strong tendency to backshifting. I'll learn over time, maybe...

You are right, you get instinct by imitating the natives, but... do you think it's simple? I know you know it's not simple, but I'll tell you anyway Smile [:)]

... There are two big problems:
1) To imitate native speakers we need to notice, analyze, and memorize what they say. Well, this is not just reading or listening, this is actually studying hard, and you can't do this for too long every day. This is not reading a book, this is reading a book slowly and carefully for five times! And let's hope it is a good book, LOL.
2) To imitate native speakers you have to find native speakers to imitate. But... do you know how much "Engrish" there is on the net, for example? In manuals? Techincal tutorials? Even in academic publications? You never know what's good and what's not. I even think that spending a lot of time in this forum is enough to be considered a bad habit for your English. I would say almost half of the English on the net is non-native. I'd say the only reliable source of good English comes from listening, at least you can tell if it's good from the accent...

Ok, now I'm done complaining like a little child... in this thread, though. I'll restart complaining in another one. Wink [;)]

Thanks again.

Kooyeen

Accents

CalifJim

#397577 Sat, 28 Jul 07 03:03 AM

You are right, you get instinct by imitating the natives, but... do you think it's simple?

No. It's awful, awful, awful!!! I've been through the same thing with several languages, so I've gone through all that frustration myself many times. If it makes you feel any better, your English is better than my Russian, German, Spanish, French, or Italian!

this is actually studying hard, and you can't do this for too long every day. This is not reading a book, this is reading a book slowly and carefully for five times!

Surely not so few times as five! Smile [:)]

I'd say go easy on the books. Use them for reference. Listening to the language (as you've been doing, to judge by the audio excerpts you've posted) and repeating what you hear (within reason -- you don't want to imitate Valley Girl Talk!) is the better way to go, I think.

you have to find native speakers to imitate.

Big, big problem, I agree -- at least the live ones are sometimes hard to find. But you can get tapes, etc. And I am lucky in that I live in a large city with universities with a fairly large international student population, so I go to the university language departments and see which Italian (or Spanish or whatever) students have posted I'm-willing-to-tutor-Italian-cheap signs on the public bulletin boards -- emphasis on cheap. Sometimes you can just call because they keep lists of such things. When you finally start with the tutoring sessions you'll find you're more knowledgeable than they are about language, but so what, you still have someone to chat with once a week. And it doesn't usually cost that much, so it's not like you're getting ripped off if you get someone who's not too sure what a verb is. Smile [:)]

Ok, now I'm done complaining like a little child... in this thread, though. I'll restart complaining in another one

Hmm. I didn't have you pegged as a gnogna. (You can correct that word; not sure of it.)

CJ