Itasan  +  235389 Tue, 13 Jun 06 02:49 AM We have this term literally translated as 'an other-way-round teacher' = a bad teacher who after all proved to be a good teacher because some of the students have thought "I will never become such a person" This relationship should not necessarily be a teacher-student one. It can be parent-child, boss-subordinate, older brother-younger brother, etc. Is there any such word in English? Thank you. Itasan Joined on Wed, May 11 2005 Japan Full Member 402

	Grammar Geek  +  235409 Tue, 13 Jun 06 04:24 AM A bad example. Grammar Geek Joined on Tue, Jan 10 2006 Veteran Member 19,683 Barbara, who answers in American English. My housekeeping skills attest to the truth of the second law of thermodynamics: Left to themselves, things get more and more random!

	Clive  +  235420 Tue, 13 Jun 06 04:48 AM Hi, 'A dark horse' refers to someone who surprises you , usually in a way that is not unpleasant. Best wishes, Clive Clive Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004 Canada Veteran Member 29,664 El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo

	CalifJim  +  235729 Tue, 13 Jun 06 11:47 PM a bad teacher who after all proved to be a good teacher because some of the students have thought "I will never become such a person" I believe your focus is that the teacher was "good" only insofar as he provided an example of what not to do if you wanted to be a good teacher -- not that the teacher was ever really a good teacher or ever really came to be seen as a good teacher. Furthermore, you want an adjectival form that expresses this example of what not to do. That's a tough assignment.  (only) by negative example comes to mind (The teacher was good only by [providing a] negative example.), but is unsatisfactory in many ways.  I don't think there is such a word in English.  The idea may have to be expressed in a different way.  cautionary tale is another phrase that comes to mind, but a simple substitution in the form *a cautionary tale teacher absolutely will not work.  object lesson is similar in meaning, but has the same problem. You'd have to say something like His teaching technique was a [cautionary tale / object lesson] in bad teaching. In the final analysis, if I had to choose, I would translate an other-way-round [teacher / parent / boss / ...] as a perfect example of a bad [teacher / parent / boss / ...].  For a bad you might substitute an incompetent. He was an inspiration to his students (only) in being a perfect example of [a bad / an incompetent ] teacher. CJ CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,455 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Negatives

	Grammar Geek  +  235776 Wed, 14 Jun 06 03:06 AM Jim, don't you think that "a bad example" serves that purpose? Grammar Geek

	CalifJim  +  235835 Wed, 14 Jun 06 07:38 AM How would you use it as a substitute for 'other-way-round' in the adjectival meaning described? an 'other-way-round' teacher = a bad example of a teacher? Yes, I suppose that would serve the purpose, although it's awfully close to saying 'other-way-round' = 'bad': an 'other-way-round' teacher = a bad teacher. I don't think any of us has come up with the exact shade of meaning the original poster seemed to be describing.  I was trying to get the idea of 'good' into it with 'perfect' (I could have said 'excellent') example of a bad (teacher) - to show that the teacher was actually a 'good' teacher (for 'other-way-round' reasons).  As I said, I'm not sure there is a way to say it in English -- nothing succinct anyway. Or else I'm just reading more into it than I should be!  CJ CalifJim

	Itasan  +  235839 Wed, 14 Jun 06 08:02 AM As I said in my original post, this person may not necessarily be a school teacher. Our term in Japanese is HANMEN KYOSHI. I don't know if it exactly translates into 'an other-way-round teacher'. Example: Suppose I hit my wife all the time. My son sees it. He finds it a terrible thing to do. He is determined not to do such a thing when he gets married. Now that he is married, he is an ideal husband. In that case, I have served as a HANMEN KYOSHI for my son, although I didn't intend to be one. Itasan