anon1  +  63550 Sun, 26 Dec 04 10:49 PM Hi, Please comment on the underlined portion of quote. Actually, you may comment on any portion, but I am specifically interested in the underlined portion. Consulting a dozen or so recently published punctuation guides, I can report that they contain minor disagreements on virtually all aspects of the above and that their only genuine consistency is in using Keats's poems as the prime example. Strange but true. They just can't leave it alone. "It is Keats' poems (NOT Keats's)," they thunder. Or alternatively: "It is Keats's poems (NOT Keats')." Well, poor old Keats, you can't help thinking. No wonder he developed that cough. Having said that there are no absolute rights and wrongs in this matter, however, when many people wrote to ask why St Thomas' Hospital in London has no "s" after the apostrophe, I did feel that the answer much echo Dr Johnson's when asked to explain his erroneous definition of a pastern: "Ignorance, madam, pure ignorance." Of course it should be St Thomas's Hospital. Of course it should. I look forward to your comments. MountainHiker anon1 Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2004 Senior Member 2,049 Punctuation, Apostrophes

	asdf  +  63561 Mon, 27 Dec 04 03:59 AM There are three basic rules, which I won't mention here. When a noun such as Keats is possessive, the lone apostrophe is fine and follows the rule. When the extra syllable is added, the extra s (Keats's is okay (Keats-uz). asdf Joined on Sun, Oct 29 2006 Junior Member 70 The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug. Possessives, Nouns, Punctuation, Apostrophes

	anon1  +  63581 Mon, 27 Dec 04 06:56 AM bermbits, I was interested in the underlined portion. More specifically how "however" is treated. I would tend to use ";however," rather than the ",however,". MountainHiker anon1 Punctuation

	CalifJim  +  63591 Mon, 27 Dec 04 08:22 AM Besides the ", however, " - which I, too, write as "; however, ", the "much echo" is a problem. "closely echoes" is perhaps what was intended. CJ CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,465 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Punctuation

	Mister Micawber  +  63644 Mon, 27 Dec 04 02:00 PM You can't put a semicolon before the 'however', because there is no independent clause preceding it. The bit needs re-working; it is awkward. You can keep the semicolon if you wish, but I would prefer a full stop and a new start on the complex sentence to follow: 'There are no absolute rights and wrongs in this matter. However, when many people wrote to ask why St. Thomas' Hospital in London has no "s" after the apostrophe, I did feel that the answer should closely echo Dr Johnson's when asked to explain his erroneous definition of a pastern: "Ignorance, madam, pure ignorance." ' Mister Micawber Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004 Yokohama Veteran Member 30,841 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.' Clauses, Colons, Punctuation, Apostrophes, Semicolons

	anon1  +  63672 Mon, 27 Dec 04 05:42 PM All, MM, I had misread the quote myself. I took the stuff before the "however" as follows: Having said that (all the preamble), there are no absolute rights and wrongs in this matter. I didn't read it as one contiguous phrase. But that is my error, not the author's. All, I agree that the quoted phrase is awkward. Here is a more complete version of stuff surrounding the quote: http://www.palmdigitalmedia.com/product/book/excerpt/16961. The quote is from page 57 of "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss. It is the best-seller's list, which is quite amazing for a punctuation or grammar book. MountainHiker anon1 Grammar, Punctuation

	CalifJim  +  63674 Mon, 27 Dec 04 05:48 PM Mr. M. You are absolutely right. The semi-colon, should the writer have wanted one, would have been placed elsewhere, to wit: ....blah, blah, blah; however, having said that there are no absolute rights and wrongs in this matter, when ... But that makes matters worse in terms of length and awkwardness. I also agree that the "should ... echo" is better. CJ CalifJim Colons, Punctuation

	Mister Micawber  +  63773 Tue, 28 Dec 04 07:24 AM And how about this, from the second paragraph of the 'Eats Shoots etc' excerpt?-- Cruelty to punctuation is quite unlegislated: you can get away with pulling the legs off semicolons; shrivelling question marks on the garden path under a powerful magnifying glass; you name it. Shouldn't those semicolons be commas? I haven't time at the moment to read more of her excerpt, but thanks for pulling it up, MH-- I've been meaning to take a look at that book for a long time now, and will get back to this site soon. Mister Micawber Colons, Commas, Punctuation, Paragraphs, Question Marks, Semicolons

	anon1  +  63778 Tue, 28 Dec 04 07:55 AM Hi Mister Micawber, I tend to agree, though I guess there is room for ambiguity. I tend to use semicolons in lists where an a comma in the list items is already used. I can't think of a good example for demonstration purposes. Said differently, I use semicolons when a comma will not show the proper separation among the list items. As far as Eats, Shoots & Leaves, I am not overly impressed. I have the book and am making my way through it. I find the author's tone somewhat condenscending, and I don't find the book that terribly helpful. I suppose if you have absolutely no clue at all, then the book is helpful. But if you are already somewhat or reasonably proficient and are looking to give your punctuation understanding a minor tuning up, then I think you will be dissappointed. Have a look at Amazon's comments with the lowest ranked comments shown first. You can see that a lot of readers were dissappointed. I am not sure that I would give only a one star rating, but I certainly would give it a five star rating either. MountainHiker anon1 Colons, Commas, Punctuation, Semicolons