YoungCalifornian wrote:

I can accept that times were different when Islam was founded.  I would also concede that it's unfair to judge the actions of Muhammed and early Muslims by modern standards of morality.  However, what I cannot accept is when the morality and ethics of the 7th century are applied today.  Christians, and member of other religions, have been equally harsh in their treatment of non-believers and converts at various points in history.  The difference is that modern Christians do not look to the actions of those historic Christians as an examples of how they should behave in the 21st century.  In essence, elements of their beliefs have evolved with the times.  In contrast, it seems that many, if not most, Muslims look to those early followers of Muhammed as role models for how they should live their lives today.  I find that very disturbing considering many of their violent actions which, again, were not entirely unjustified or unusual in the age they were committed, but which are wholly inappropriate in the 21st century.

That is true.At least that is what should be. Because Koran is not a book of 6. century but all the times. Koran can be interpreted in different meanings from time to time, which provides Koran`s continuity.Look, many verses which couldnt possibly be understood in earlier ages of Islam now can be understood better with advanced technology. Who would dare to say in the 6. century that the world is not flat or the universe is constituted from a gase mass or the universe is always expanding or athmosphere consists of seven layers or the mountains are moving and others. But all of these and much more of them were already written in Koran. For a tenth century man it is reasonable to claim some verses of Koran doesnt make sense to him but Koran is understood better as time passes.So we cannot say this verse doesnt fit todays conditions so we couldnt apply it today. Sure Allah knows best of all.As for Christianty, it makes sense to me that they dont perpetuate what they did earlier times. What do you expect? Would they still hang who says the world is turning around or would they still sell lands from Heaven.Sure, they had to change somethings that they used to do.

YoungCalifornian wrote:

Furthermore, religion should not be mixed with politics.

Why not if the members are contented with it? I think the point that most dont get is religion is not an ideology. Religion is religion. For a believer it is above everything.

YoungCalifornian wrote:

Even if it was a trap, they still took the bait..

Thats why I ended my comment with a statement that criticizes some Islam countries. I think first Islam must be understood in the true way by the world. Everything is step by step. We as humans have a limited sight. So we cannot see the reason of everything,as I have mentioned woth examples above.I think,somethings will be understood better in time. But you are right that some still take the bait.

YoungCalifornian wrote:

Again, the way you yourself characterize Islam, it does not sound like a tolerant religion despite your claims that it is.  Not forcing non-believers to convert to your religion is not the same as tolerating them.  When Muslims allow them to retain their beliefs but treat them as religious inferiors and second-class citizens, they are not being tolerant.  Futhermore, your statement that everyone "is accountable to tell their religion in the right way" suggests that any attempts to characterize their religion in manner opposed to Muslim views of them will be met with resistance.  Since when do practitioners of one religion get to define the beliefs of another?

I completely disagree. It seems you didnt get my point. First of all, Islam doesnt treat non believers as second class citizens.Remember what I said.For Islam, no one can be superior to one another expect in faith. And there is no one between God and individual in Islam. And everyone is accountable to tell his religion in the right way doesnt suggest "any attempts to characterize their religion in manner opposed to Muslim views of them will be met with resistance." I dont know how can you make such a interpretation from my sentence.Still it is quite true that every Muslim is responsible to tell religion in the right way. Right way means what is explained in Koran and hadiths and sunneths. And "tell" doesnt mean "by words". If a Muslim live his religion in the right way, the meaning of my sentence would be fulfilled. For instance,here iare the words of Mevlana to prove the point of view of Islam (he is the founder of Sufism)

"Come, come over, more over, how long this brigandage? As you are me and I am you. How long this discrimination of you and I?
 
We are light of GOD! Why this separation among us? Why light escapes from light? We are all from the same yeast, our brains and heads too. But under this bowed sky we see double…"

and a different one of him that invites non believers.

Regards

It is quite intolerable that a man should be subject to a trial of any kind, let alone sentenced to death, for changing his religion.

Either Islam allows a man to be killed for changing his religion or it does not. Will some Moslem give me a yes or no answer instead of telling me to become a scholar of Islam.

I'd like to shed light on some misconceptions in your posts before I quit this debate from my side.

"you've already lost the debate."

  Thank you for reminding me of what type of discussion we are proceeding in. You don't post here because you want to know Islamic views about the topic but to argue such a topic as long as you have already made up your mind about it. This is a fight I don't want to be a part of.

"I must also make clear that I am a firm believer in the separation of church and state."

Having said this, that explains much. On this basis, you would not accept ANY judgments Islam offers about ANY case, not only apostasy. In Islam both religion and state are two sides of the same coin. To verify Janissary's opinion, nowadays there's no appropriate Islamic State (not as it was more than 1400 years ago). Clearly Muslims countries today (even in the Middle East) have different rulings each according to its own interest. ALAS!! You said "Religious belief should be the realm of individuals, not whole communities.  Furthermore, religion should not be mixed with politics.  Everyone has the right to believe what they want, and to share those beliefs if they so choose." In fact it's when we begin thinking this way we begin to degrade. Islam is not merely a relation with one's Creator. It's a CORRECT WAY OF LIFE.

"Not forcing non-believers to convert to your religion is not the same as tolerating them.  When Muslims allow them to retain their beliefs but treat them as religious inferiors and second-class citizens, they are not being tolerant."

I don't really know from where you got this idea?? Have you read History of Muslims or have you lived in any Muslim country and suffered second-rate treatment??? Anyway to lift the fog in front of your eyes, please read more about US. Christians had lived along with Muslims during the appropriate Islamic State in peace and harmony. In addition, many foreigners holding different beliefs are living in our Muslim countries again in peace and harmony.

"That said, I will state that my mind is already made up in that I believe that to even consider executing Abdul Rahman for apostasy is reprehensible and unjustifiable.  If you're going to try and convince me that it is justifiable, I will tell you right now that you're not going to succeed."

Actually I am not trying to convince you about anything. I am stating what I believe in the light of both the Holy Quran and Hadeeth. Again this is not a fight I am eager to win.

"he is not qualified to outline proper interpretations and judgments regarding the Koran and hadith (as I implied in posts above, I think it a flawed tradition in Islam that individuals are not trusted to make their own interpretations, but that is another matter)."

"You're beginning to seem like a product of religious indoctrination since a young age"

In these two comments, you implied that Islam terminate minds. But Islam come to elevate minds . In general, Muslims hold that there are very strong, rational reasons for them to believe in their religion. The Almighty Allah, the Creator of the whole universe and all living beings, the Creator of minds inside human brains, knows His creatures best. No Shar'iah should be suitable and compatible except from the one who creates us. As we ,Muslims, believe in authenticity of the Quran, the true revelation of God, we believe as well that the rulings included are the best for us. But notice here that Islam is not a matter of BLIND FAITH. Quran always calls for working the minds. "Say, `Are those who know equal to those who know not ?' Verily, only those endowed with understanding will take heed." " verily, are Signs for a people who reflect." " Therein are Signs for a people who use their understanding." " Will they not, then, ponder over the Qur'an, or, is it that there are locks on their hearts ?"

In Islam and Quran we have PROOFS. How?? If any one is really serious to know more, visit www.islamtomorrow.com , browse the site yourself and you can even ask scholars and they'll answer you.

"Muslim clerics" You repeatedly use this term. In fact there's no such terminology in Islam even if I translate it into Arabic. There's no such a division as clergy man and layman which is a result of the separation of religion from any other activity in life. All Muslims are Muslims believing in 6 basics doing 5 duties. If they neglect one of their duties, they bear the responsibility of their own action. What differs is the degree of religious commitment. Some have memorized the Quran, most studied have Hadeeth and read the biography of our prophet. All should follow Allah's commands concerning issues of worldly life. My younger brother (only 16 years old) memorized the whole Quran and studied books of Hadeeth, my aunt nearly do the same. I am trying to comprehend and memorize much of the Quran and to be more religiously committed. Yet we aren't clerics nor scholars. In Islam we have scholars, sheikhs, Imams ..etc.

YoungCalifornian wrote:

Finally, let me say that I would like the actual issue here to be addressed.  I'm not looking to debate the overall merit or truth of Islam.  Instead, please just answer the question posed in the final sentence of my second paragraph in this post, which is essentially the same one posed by me in my previous post and by Forbes.

Looks like no Moslem (or indeed anyone else) is prepared to address the issue.