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rommie  +  24911 Sat, 06 Mar 04 03:55 PM
Regarding your PS. If you want to talk physics, I'm up for it, in another thread. Hawking solved the big bang singularity problem a while back. More recently, string theory answers many more questions. It's a really interesting side topic if you want to go down that road. I don't want to dwell on that too much here though as it's off topic.

Sorry for replying twice, by the way. I got caught out by the delay between posting and the post's appearing. I thought the first had got lost, and posted the second, which is why they both say almost the same thing.

The thing about any theory, however, yours included, is that it must be able to make predictions, which are above and beyond the original observations. Those predictions can then be tested. If the predictions come out true, then the theory survives until the next observation. If it doesn't, then you know it's wrong, although of course it may still be a good model in the scope of the original observations.

As I said in a previous post, I am interested in finding out the truth, regardless of what that truth turns out to be. So I'm happy to pursue this line of reasoning. You say you can make testable predictions based on your theory. Well that's GREAT. Tell us what they are - you have a large audience here who may be able to independently test your hypotheses. If they all get the same results as you, you will have greatly improved the standing of your theory. If you're up for a wider test, shall we devise some experiments?

Rommie
Joined on Mon, Jan 26 2004
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Bubr  +  24928 Sat, 06 Mar 04 05:39 PM
Actually, the predictions I spoke about were "for personal purposes only", which is, be applied to some certain people I know, to some situations I come across. As long as we hardly have common friends since we dwell on different points on Earth, it can hardly be performed here.

But if your suggestion of "independent test" wasn't a mockery, I can still try.

Consider graduate students in the U.S. There are domestic (U.S.) students and foreign students. These are the two groups we shall study. Why would a person go for graduate studies in the U.S.? In case of a foreign student there may be two reasons:
A) Because he/she likes the science
B) Because he/she can ear his/her living on it in the US
In case of a U.S. person who can make a career in the U.S. without a Ph.D. degree (which in case of exact sciences may be even more well paid than an academic career after graduate studies) there is only reason A. I suggest mathematicians/computer technologists as object for testing for the latter assertion applies to them well.

So, we have two groups of U.S. graduate students of exact sciences:
1) U.S. citizens
2) Foreigners

The prediction is that if we believe that a U.S. citizen and a foreigner of equal qualification have equal chances for graduate studies, and that men are dependent on "soul" more than women, then the ratio women/men in the 1-st group must be LOWER than in the 2-nd. It's because U.S. female graduates, most of whom are either not interested by their only reason A) or neglect their "soul"'s cry in favor of practical needs, will stop their education after graduation with B.S. or M.S.

Notice that the assumption that men are more intellectual BUT are driven by their "soul" equally to women - will predict EQUAL ratio in both groups, as well as the theory of different mean deviation in intellectual abilities in men/women.

So if there are more female foreigners relative to male than female U.S. relative to male among graduate students in computer science/math/..., then the "priorities" theory gave the right prediction unlike theories of intellect mean value or mean deviation discrepancies. You may believe me that I never checked this statistics; to make a good check the ratio must be averaged over many universities. Will anyone do it or find the needed numbers?

Does it sound satisfactory, Rommie?
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003
Full Member 437
rommie  +  24979 Sun, 07 Mar 04 08:47 AM
I wasn't mocking. I am never afraid of being wrong, because every time this happens, I learn something new, and that is always exciting.

I think part of the problem here is that I just don't get this word "soul". It is known that there are differences in the way that males and females think - an MRI scan can demonstrate that. This is not a difference in what people think ABOUT, however, it is a difference in which parts of their brains are being employed for a given task.

When you think in a logical, rational way, more of your left hemisphere will "light up" in a scan than your right. When you think in a creative way, more of your right hemisphere will "light up" in a scan than your left. Geniuses, however, have shown a surprising result - they use all of it! They use logic when writing a symphony, and creativity when solving math.

Introspection - thinking about thinking - tends to light up the corpus callosum (the bit at the front). There is no MRI scan evidence in support of the notion that men do this any more, or any differently, from women. (I think you were asserting that men do this more than women, but I may have got that wrong because I don't understand "soul").

I would not concur with your reasoning. There are too many other factors which could skew the results, not least of which is cultural conditioning.

I think I must conclude that, if you have a model which works for you, then stick with it. You are probably better qualified than I - I am seldom able to predict the actions of humans with any degree of accuracy. Thanks for making me think in a new direction.

Rommie
Elena  +  24980 Sun, 07 Mar 04 08:47 AM
HI all

Bubr wrote:

"A few questions, Elena:

1) Do you believe men and women are EQUAL in any sense?
2) Is there any way to be objective while observing anything from INSIDE, which is, in this case, talking about men and women while being male?"

Here you are my answers.
1) Equal = the same.
Yes Bubr, all humans are the same regardeless the gender, the tone of skin, the age, the nationality, the stature... You can state physical differences with total certainty, that women have uterus and men prostate gland, that coloured people have their skin more toned that east asian people, that a child is shorter than an adult, but about intellect, emotions, values and mind/spirit you will never be able to conclude anything ascribed to a human or another with certainty.

2) Of course there are ways to be objective while observing, or do you observe the landscape as male, do you study geography as male, do you compare cultures just as male?

What I said in the post that provoked your questions was that it is not scientifist at all to study women by comparing to males as reference, like assuming that reference is the norm/correct pattern, as in the case of the commence of this thread, by imaginig that as less names of women as Nobel Price and so, it could suggest less intelligence, just comparing number of male names with number of female names instead of studying from objective way.


It is not you, it is an unfortunate stream of human behaviour that has been harmfull for all, men and women.



Joined on Thu, Jul 31 2003
Regular Member 827
Enjoying my English study
lucy_indsky  +  25650 Mon, 15 Mar 04 11:05 AM
Hi, first time poster hereSmile [:)]

Are men more intelligent? hehe, men have always been more powerful in the social structure, and throughout history women have had to endure the oppression and domination by men!!!

Before everyone jumps on me pointing a finger and calling me a feminist b... :P, let me simply say one thing... i am only talking from what i read and hear on the news, in books, and through my anthropology course which has led me to believe that never and in no place have women been able to take the rule of society in their hands and therefore have always been cut out from world issues and other areas of life, which would point to the fact that they have not been able to do all the things that men have been given the god-given right to do.

In fact, men have traditionally been associated with culture, while women with nature. This dichotomy has led to women taking on the role of carer, nurturer and have found themselves allocated to the house, raising the family and so on and so forth. MEn, on the other hand (let us start with the Greeks and end up with looking at present-day politicians, for example) have been released for a long time, from the nature domain and so have been encouraged to create and develop their artistic, political, jural and cultural characteristics.

Nowadays, many of you may say that things have changed, that more women are furthering their education - at least in the Western world, because in other areas this equality seems to be lagging behind. However, i wonder whether things have really changed. In Malta, at least, jobs seem to be designed to one's gender, and let us not talk about one's religious belief and skin colour (racists we were, racists we remain). Women are paid less than men in many companies. Women are often given lower status jobs than men, even though they may have the same or higher qualifications. Women are often asked at interviews whether they plan to marry, because of course, an employer would rather pay a male who will claim no maternity leave on the company. It seems that women are still restricted somewhat to the nature domain even though we consider ourselves to be about to enter the European mansion and as being more ADVANCED (hahaha) than other countries!!! :(

If we want to speak about intelligence, let us look around us and start critically analysing the way in which people are treated, if they are given equal opportunities to develop their ideas and influence society!!! Then we can start seeing if in reality women are less intelligent!!! :@
Joined on Mon, Mar 1 2004
Malta
New Member 01
maj  +  25697 Mon, 15 Mar 04 10:46 PM
That is an interesting question from a feminist point of view. It is widely accepted that women have traditionally been associated with reproduction. Luckily for the human species on some occasions, and unlucky in some other cases, women have the so-called female reproductive system that ,believe it or not, is absolutely necessary for the survival of our species so far. That is why they are the ones whose job is to nurture the children. For that insignicant reason, as you might as well consider it is a dead easy task, they usually spend more time with their off-spring and that is why men are asked at interviews if they are married and have a family, the main reason being their potential employer knowing that it would be the interviewee's wife the one who would take care of the children in case of an emergency.
maj
Joined on Mon, Mar 31 2003
Senior Member 4,756
Chameleon  +  25707 Tue, 16 Mar 04 02:24 AM
Matriarchies _have_ existed in the past. During the 8th century of Japanese history, the ruling imperial was usually an empress. (Sorry everyone, I'm a Japanophile...) I thought maybe you would find this interesting Lucy:

Quote from: http://www.npf.org.tw/PUBLICATION/NS/091/NS-C-091-187.htm

********************

There were altogether eight empresses in Japan. Empress Suiko was the first female sovereign, who ruled the empire efficiently with the help of Prince Shotoku from 592 to 628. The second, Empress Kogyoku, reigned briefly from 642, abdicated in favor of her son in 645, and re-ascended the throne in 661, when the son, Emperor Kotoku, died. Renamed Empress Saimei, she continued to reign until 661.

The third empress, Jito, came to power in 686 and ruled through 707.

In the history of monarchy in Japan, the eighth century is remarkable for the number of female sovereigns. Empress Gemmyo, a sister of Jito, succeeded in 708, shortly before the capital was established at Nara. She was followed by her daughter in 715; and the next ruler, Emperor Shomu, after a reign of 24 years abdicated in August 749 in favor of his unmarried daughter, who reigned first as Empress Koken from 749 to 758, and then - after deposing Emperor Junnin in whose favor she had abdicated - as Shotoku from 764 to 770. During her second reign, Japan’s sixth empress almost ended the dynasty, dating back to the pre-Christian era.

Buddhism was adopted by Emperor Shomu as the religion of the imperial court, although worship of the national gods, led by Amaterasu Omikami from whom the ruling dynasty claimed descent, as a customary rite was not disavowed. In such circumstances, the power of the leading Buddhist ecclesiastics was very great, and a handsome priest named Dokyo was able to make such an impression upon Empress Koken that before long he became “chancellor of the realm,” and nearly succeeded in having himself named as her successor to the throne.

Such pretensions angered the Fujiwara family, who had acquired a strong political position thanks to their native ability and their practice of marrying Fujiwara girls to imperial princes. Nakamaro of the Fujiwara family was in high favor with Emperor Junnin but not the ex-empress. In a civil disturbance that took place in 764-765 Nakamaro was captured and killed, while the young emperor was deposed and exiled in 765 and presumably strangled to death. The ex-empress re-ascended the throne as Shotoku and Dokyo became so powerful as to have a leading Shinto priest recommend to the court at Nara in 769 that she abdicate in favor of the young monk to secure peace in the country.

Subsequently, the empress sent Wake no Kiyomaro, a high court official, to the Hachiman (God of War) Shrine at Usa in Kyushu, an oracle from which the Shinto priest had cited in his recommendation to the Nara court. Though threatened and coaxed by Dokyo, Kiyomaro, who was under orders to authenticate the oracle, reported back to the court that it was a fake. He declared the genuine oracle dictated a dynastic offspring to succeed to the throne and any “bad character” claimant to be ousted. An enraged Dokyo exiled Kiyomaro to Osumi, present-day Kagoshima. The monk was banished immediately after the empress died without issue in 770. When her successor, Emperor Konin, died in 781, the council of ministers refused to allow a woman to take the throne, thereby creating a precedent which was followed consistently in later times, except for two unimportant instances after 1600, when the throne was powerless. The two unimportant empresses, the seventh and eighth female sovereigns, were Meisho (1629-1643) and Gosakuramachi (1762-1770).

******************

So matriarchies certainly have existed in the past. I'll give it to you though, they were and are extremely uncommon (and vulnerable to coup).
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004
Full Member 174
Guest, 5 yr 252 days ago
Nice work Chameleon, but there are a couple of minor points that could be argued, the first of which is that Amaterasu has not been proved to have been an actual person, and that if she did exist she had a father - His Augustness the Male-Who-Invites (according to the Kojiki). There are a couple of other points I will try to highlight when I have the time (hopefully later today).

One other point I DO have time to draw light upon is the question of whether the existence of a female sovereign alone is grounds on which to label a society as being matriarchal. I do not believe that to be true, especially bearing in mind that many (I avoid the use of most - reluctantly) historians agree that the real power in Japan has almost always been held by the Imperial Court, not the sovereign.

The Oxford Learners Dict. defines matriarchal as follows;
ma•tri•arch•al /metrikl; AmE -rkl/ adj. (of a society or system) controlled by women rather than men; passing power, property, etc. from mother to daughter rather than from father to son.

Note that it says 'controlled by women (plural)' not 'by an Empress'.

Its an interesting subject Chameleon. Can you explain how it is related to the original topic of debate? Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining, just trying to get clarification of your argument.
Guest, 5 yr 252 days ago
Sorry Chameleon, I have to set the record straight.

During the 6th century there were 4 female Empresses. During that period their combined length of reign was 36 years or around 34%, hardly enough to consider dominant.

During the 7th century AD there were three Empresses - total reign again 36 years.

Out of a total record of 123 Emperors (Jinmu Tenno being the first - definitely not the mythical Amaterasu) only eight have been female.

Since the first Emperor Jinmu Tenno came to power in 585BC until now, a total of 2419 years, Japan has been rules by females for a total of only 94 years, and even then it must be remembered that many historians believe the Imperial Court wielded the real power - not the Emperor OR Empress.

I don't believe these figures suggest Japan was at any time a matriarchal society.

* Indicates female
JINMU (660 b.c.-585 b.c.)
SUIZEI (581 b.c.-549 b.c.)
ANNEI (549 b.c.-511 b.c.)
ITOKU (510 b.c.-477 b.c.)
KOUSHOU (475 b.c.-393 b.c.)
KOUAN (392 b.c.-291 b.c.)
KOUREI (290 b.c.-215 b.c.)
KOUGEN (214 b.c.-158 b.c.)
KAIKA (158 b.c.-98 b.c.)
SUJIN (97 b.c.-30 b.c.)
SUININ (29 b.c.-70 b.c.)
KEIKOU (71 b.c.-130 b.c.)
SEIMU
CHUUAI (192 - 200)
OUJIN (270 - 310)
NINTOKU
RICHU
HANZEI
INGYOU
ANKOU
YUUCHAKU
SEINEI
KENSOU
NINKEN
BURETSU
KEITAI (507-531)
ANKAN (531-535)
SENKA (535-539)
KINMEI (539-571)
BIDATSU(572-585)
YOUMEI (585-587)
SUSHUN (587-592)
SUIKO (592-628)*
JYOMEI (629-641)
KOUGYOKU (642-645)*+
KOUTOKU (645-654)
SAIMEI (655-661)*+
TENJI (668-671)
KOUBUN (671-672)
TENMU (673-686)
JITOU (690-697)*
MONMU (697-707)
GENMEI (707-715)*
GENSHOU (715-724)*
SHOUMU (724-749)
KOUKEN (749-758)*
JUN-NIN (758-764)
*SHOUTOKU (764-770)
KOU-NIN(770-781)
KANMU (781-806)
HEIZEI (806-809)
SAGA (809-823)
JUN-NA (823-833)
NINMYOU (833-850)
MONTOKU (850-858)
SEIWA (858-876)
YOUZEI (876-884)
KOUKOU (884-887)
UDA (887-897)
DAIGO (897-930)
SUZAKU (930-946)
MURAKAMI (946-967)
REIZEI (967-969)

EN-YU (969-984)
KAZAN (984-986)
ICHIJYOU (986-1011)
SANJYOU (1011-1016)
GOICHIJYOU (1016-1036)
GOSUZAKU (1036-1045)
GOREIZEI (1045-1068)
GOSANJYOU (1068-1072)
SHIRAKAWA (1072-1086)
HORIKAWA (1086-1107)
TOBA (1107-1123)
SUTOKU (1123-1141)
KONOE (1141-1155)
GOSHIRAKAWA 1155-1158)
NIJYOU (1158-1165)
ROKUJYOU (1165-1168)
TAKAKURA(1168-1180)
ANTOKU (1180-1185)
GOTOBA (1183-1198)
TSUCHIMIKADO (1198-1210)
JUNTOKU (1210-1221)
CHUUKYOU (1221)
GOHORIKAWA (1121-1132)
SHIJYOU (1232-1242)
GOSAGA (1242-1246)
GOFUKAKUSA (1246-1259)
KAMEYAMA (1259-1274)
GOUDA (1274-1287)
FUSHIMI (1287-1298)
GOFUSHIMI (1298-1301)
GONIJYOU (1301-1308)
HANAZONO (1308-1318)

Southern Dynasty


Northern Dynasty
GODAIGO (1318-1339)
GOMURAKAMI (1339-1368)
CHOUKEI (1368-1383)
GOKAMEYAMA (1383-1392) KOUGON (1331-1333)
KOUMYOU (1336-1348)
SUKOU (1348-1351)
GOKOUGON (1352-1371)
GOENYUU (1371-1382)
GOKOMATSU (1382-1412)
SHOUKOU (1412-1428)
GOHANAZONO(1428-1464)
GOTSUCHIMIKADO (1464-1500)
GOKASHIWABARA (1500-1526)
GONARA (1526-1557)
OOIMACHI (1557-1586)
GOYOUZEI (1586-1611)
GOMIZUNOO (1611-1629)
MEISHOU (1629-1643)*
GOKOUMYOU (1643-1654)
GOSAI (1654-1663)
REIGEN (1663-1687)
HIGASHIYAMA (1687-1709)
NAKAMIKADO (1709-1735)
SAKURAMACHI (1735-1747)
MOMOZONO (1747-1762)
GOSAKURAMACHI (1762-1770)*
GOMOMOZONO (1770-1779)
KOUKAKU (1779-1817)
NINKOU (1817-1846)
KOUMEI (1846-1866)
MEIJI (1867-1912)
TAISHO (1912-1926)
SHOWA (1926-1989)
KINJYOU (Heisei)(1989 - present)
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