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Hela  #71655  Wed, 02 Feb 05 06:42 AM
Good morning CalifJim,

When I wrote the sentence I was "effectivement" thinking about the tense in the subordinate clause and I used it on purpose to see if it worked. What I told myself was that the subordinate clause there was not an adverbial clause of time but rather a relative clause, i.e.,
"I'll try again AT WHICH TIME ?" "when my brain will be working properly."

Correct / Incorrect ?

I look forward to your answer!

Amitiés,
Hela
  
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CalifJim  #71657  Wed, 02 Feb 05 07:14 AM
"when" + "will" is extremely rare in English, except in questions, direct or indirect. (When will you be ready? I don't know when I will be ready.)

"I'll try again when my brain is working properly" is the more idiomatic choice.

Your logic is impeccable regarding the relative clause idea. Nevertheless, the native ear is not going to pick up the subtlety and will simply hear it as something strange, in my opinion.

What you want to say would more likely be said in idiomatic English as:

"I'll try again later. Maybe my brain will be working better then."
  
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"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
Mister Micawber  #71669  Wed, 02 Feb 05 10:06 AM

Apologies for leapfrogging back over the French connection, but just to wrap up my involvement here--

FIRST: '(7) Cocker spaniels are one of the most popular pet dogs' (and I opt, on second thought, for lower case for the breed) -- I did not think twice about 'spaniels are one of', and I suppose it has to do with notional concord and natural language use, Hela.

Using the singular ('the cocker spaniel') is a more formal form: 'The Cocker Spaniel is the smallest member of the Sporting Group. He has a sturdy, compact body and a cleanly chiseled and refined head, with the overall dog in complete balance and of ideal size.' The singular is more comfortably used in this kind of statement-- and notice the capitalization (this sentence is from a breeder's website).

For general conversation, however, we tend I think to use the plurals: 'I like cats (not 'the cat')'; 'cats are selfish pets' (not 'the cat is a selfish pet'). Therefore, my naturalizing brain automatically chose the plural form. There are many kinds of dogs-- cocker spaniels, golden retrievers, border collies-- and one kind is cocker spaniels. I'm sure that you can see where this leads, Hela-- there was an immediate lack of concord between 'spaniels' and 'is', so I changed to 'are'; and then, notionally, my mind supplied 'one kind/sort of... pet dogs' and all seemed well with the revised sentence.

I may be in trouble with the stricter moderators for this, unless Casi can come up with a better rationale than mine for this phenomenon.

SECOND: Yes, I am aware of the House Sparrow and Starling problem there, MrP. I sometimes visit BIRD FORUMS for information on birds (scroll down slightly for House Sparrow/Starling talk).



  
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'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'
MrPedantic  #71705  Wed, 02 Feb 05 01:55 PM
Hello Hela

Cocker spaniels are one of the most popular pet dogs.
I'd happily choose that one too.

MrP
PS: Thanks for the link, Mister M. I hadn't read the HoC transcript before. Very interesting site.





  
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...opella forensis / adducit febris...
MrPedantic  #71712  Wed, 02 Feb 05 02:40 PM
Here you are, Hela:




He and Laura ___ at Dresden now, and a very sad time they ___ have.”

“Does she write?”

“Yes; and keeps ___ all her interest about politics. I have already told her ___ you are to stand for Tankerville. No one, no other ___ being in the world, ___ be so interested for you as she ___. If any friend ever felt an interest almost selfish for a friend’s welfare, she ___ feel such an interest ___ you. If you ___ to succeed it would give her a hope in life.” Phineas ___ silent, drinking in the words that were said to him. ___ they were true, or at least meant to ___ true, they were full ___ flattery. Why ___ this woman of whom they were speaking love him ___ dearly? She was nothing ___ him. She was highly born, greatly gifted, wealthy, and a married ___, whose character, as he ___ knew, was beyond the taint ___ suspicion, though she had ___ driven by the hard sullenness ___ ___ husband to refuse ___ live under his roof. Phineas Finn and Lady Laura Kennedy had not seen each other ___ two years, and when they ___ parted, though they had lived ___ friends, there ___ ___ no signs of still living friendship. True, indeed, she ___ written to him, ___ her letters had been short and cold, merely detailing certain circumstances of her outward life. Now he was told ___ this woman’s dearest friend ___ his welfare was closer to her heart than any other interest!

“I ___ say you often think of her?” said Lady Chiltern.

“Indeed, I do.”

“What virtues she ___ to ascribe to you! What sins she forgave you! How hard she fought for you! Now, ___ she can fight no more, she does not think of it all the less.”

“Poor Lady Laura!”

“Poor Laura, indeed! When one sees such shipwreck it makes a woman doubt ___ she ought to marry at all.”

“And yet he was a good man. She ___ said so.”

“Men are so seldom really good. They are so little sympathetic. What man thinks of changing himself ___ ___ ___ suit his wife? And yet men expect that women ___ put on altogether new characters when they ___ married, and girls think ___ they can do so. Look at this Mr Maule, who is really over head and ears in ___ with Adelaide Palliser. She is full of hope and energy. He has none. And yet he ___ the effrontery to suppose that she ___ adapt herself to his way of living if he marries her.”


  
just the truth  #71834  Thu, 03 Feb 05 08:19 AM
Mr M: 8) English is an appealing language but I don’t feel the same about Spanish.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wondered, have been wondering why Mr M changed this one. How come Mr M?
  
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Mister Micawber  #71848  Thu, 03 Feb 05 10:19 AM

Good eye, JTT, thanks. I erred badly. I overlooked the second 'the' in the original, and read it as an oxymoronic sentence, the dependent clause opposing the main clause!

Mea culpa, Hela.




  
Hela  #71853  Thu, 03 Feb 05 11:16 AM
Dear moderators,

May I ask you where do you all come from, i.e., Mr Micawber, Mr Pedantic (British?), CalifJim (American?) and Just The Truth? I have nothing against the British or the Americans or any other English native speaker, I just want to know the subtle differences there might be between American English and British English. By the way I'm from Tunisia (North Africa). My mother tongue is Arabic, but don't ask me anything about my language because I know nothing about Classical ArabicEmbarrassed [:$] . I only speak our dialect which is just a spoken language. I'm much better in French though Smile [:)] .

1) Can I say: "Cocker spaniels are among the most popular pet dogs" ?

2) "When will you be ready? I don't know when I will be ready."
I understand why in the first sentence we have a future but not in the second since it is not an indirect question.

See you,
Hela

PS: Thank you Mr Pedantic for the exercise. I'll do it next week hopefully 'cause I won't be home before Wednesday 9.
  
Mister Micawber  #71870  Thu, 03 Feb 05 02:01 PM

Tunisia? How neat! I've never met a Tunisian before.

I have a foundation of Midwest American, having grown up near Chicago, with an overlay of Southern (10 years in South Carolina and Florida) and a welcome patina of Canadian (20 years there), topped by a subsequent dusting of Californian (5 years) before I came to Japan. Native speakers usually have difficulty placing my spoken English, perhaps because many of those years were spent in show business.

(1) and (2) are fine, and in (2) the tense of the adverbial clause has nothing to do with directness:

'I don't know when I'll be ready.'
'I don't know when I last ate grits.'
'I don't know when I've had such a wonderful time.'
'I don't know when I should open/should have opened this gift'.

S/he simply does not know, does not have the information.

  
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