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New2grammar

#509000 Sat, 03 May 08 04:13 PM

Actually, I''ve been reading more these days to improve my command of the language. I realize one of my many weak areas is ability to construct long sentences, ones that contain more than one clause. This is actually a sentence I picked up from a news article and it turns out to be a bad choice.But I have learned from this example how to interpret as in double clause sentences. I guess I can call it another milestone :)

New2grammar

Joined on Tue, Nov 21 2006

Veteran Member (6,930)

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Articles, Clauses

Avangi

#509127 Sat, 03 May 08 11:33 PM

Maybe one last shot at this: When you take the sentence in isolation, you have to give some weight to the introductory prepositional phrase. But if it's from a news article, as you say, the "shrinking hours and rising food costs" may have already been thoroughly discussed. The author may have considered this a bridge, or transition to the gas price thing, wishing to show the connection but not intending to emphasize it.

He might have said, "And furthermore, gas prices are - - - - - as he drives etc."

Or, "Shrinking hours and rising food costs are not the only problem. Gas prices are - - - - - - as he drives etc."

Or, "In addition to shrinking hours and rising food costs, here's another item. Gas prices etc."

IMHO the error is in constructing the sentence in a way that makes hours and food part of the subject.

Something that's new to me here at EF is the approach of treating long constructions as modifying other long constructions. If you take the approach that "In addition to shrinking hours and rising food costs" modifies everything which follows, instead of just the subject, my objection seems to melt away. What do you think?

Avangi

Joined on Mon, Nov 19 2007

Senior Member (2,470)

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Articles, Constructions

MrPedantic

#509129 Sat, 03 May 08 11:44 PM

In addition to shrinking hours and rising food costs, gas prices are burning up his paycheck as he drives his truck to jobs spread out over hundreds of miles in Southern California.

It's an interesting discussion. I myself would take "as" in this sentence as a synonym not of "while", but of "since", i.e.

"In addition to shrinking hours and rising food costs, gas prices are burning up his paycheck, since he drives his truck to jobs spread out over hundreds of miles in Southern California."

Best wishes,

MrP

MrPedantic

Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004

Veteran Member (11,852)

...opella forensis / adducit febris...

Synonyms

Avangi

#509154 Sun, 04 May 08 02:34 AM

Thanks, MrP. That solves the problem; unfortunately, just when N2g thought he had mastered the use of "as" in subordinate clauses.

Avangi

Clauses

New2grammar

#509179 Sun, 04 May 08 05:34 AM

Oh no! I'm sorry to drag on this discussion but I'm now more lost than ever :(

Let me ask this question first,

How do you interpret "In addition to X and Y, Z is ...? Is the subject X, Y and Z or just Z?

Also, I don't see how interpretingas as since will solve the problem. I understand the difference it makes, I guess I do, but it still boils down to what the subject is, X,Y and Z or just Z?

I'm really interested in finding out the answerbecause it is, I would say',not an uncommon construction.

New2grammar

Constructions

MrPedantic

#509387 Sun, 04 May 08 03:01 PM

Well, I would say that "shrinking hours and rising food costs" are also burning up his paycheck; I presume the writer put them in the separate clause because "driving hundreds of miles" does not affect their impact on his paycheck, whereas long journeys do affect the impact of gas prices.

Best wishes,

MrP

MrPedantic

Clauses, Resume

Avangi

#509449 Sun, 04 May 08 04:36 PM

Hi N2g, I'm probably too pooped to make any sense.

After you confirmed that this was not a "stand-alone" exercise sentence, but an excerpt from a news article, I began thinking in terms of "previous context," specifically that it had already been extablished that food prices and shrinking hours were messing with his pocketbook.

So we may now consider looking at the sentence you posted as adding the third item, and then justifying the addition. (Note MrP's use of the comma.) "Since he drives etc." is the reason gas prices may be added as the third significant financial problem the man faces. It also makes it clear that the subordinate clause modifies the entire main clause rather than just the verb.

In my post prior to MrP's first one, I was starting to hedge on my analysis that the final clause modifies only the verb. His switching from "while" to "since" and his addition of the comma, makes that approach more valid, in my estimation.

Regards, - A.

Avangi

Articles, Clauses, Commas, Regards, Verbs

New2grammar

#509460 Sun, 04 May 08 05:03 PM

Thanks Mr. P and Avangi. after going through this long and tedious but beneficial analysis,
I start to understand how native speakers interpret
long sentences, at least this particular type. I know
how important context is in any language but I never expected
it to affect this sentence as much. I have one last question
before I'd wrap up this discussion.

How switching from "as" as 'while' to 'since' affect the property
of the subordinate clause. If I understand you correctly,
'since' modifies the entire main clause but 'while'
modifies only the verb, quoting your words as follows:

It also makes it clear that the subordinate clause modifies the entire main clause rather than just the verb.

As I already said in my earlier post, I always think of
conjunctions as independent. I could be terribly wrong. I hope I'm
not entirely wrong because this is a serious mistake. Thanks in advance!

New2grammar

Clauses, Verbs

Avangi

#509461 Sun, 04 May 08 05:12 PM

A "while" clause usually answers the question "when," although it could have other uses. But that's the way we were using it in your example. So that makes the clause adverbial in function, modifying the verb.

"Since" is more like "because," and would be followed by a reason explaining something previously mentioned in the sentence - most likely not just a verb, but an idea.

The thing about the compound subject is, Yes, all three things are burning up the paycheck. What's new is that the "since" clause now applies only to the gas (where the "while" clause applied to all three via the verb).

- A.

(I hope MrP replies.)

Avangi

Clauses, Compound subjects, Verbs

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