aspiration after s

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Kooyeen  #505706  Sat, 26 Apr 08 01:30 PM
Hi,
I know there's usually no aspiration after S... usually or always? I have trouble with certain words like:

disclose -> dis-close or di-sclose?
mistreat -> mis-treat or mi-streat
Wisconsin -> Wis-consin or Wi-sconsin?
etc.

And if there's something weird going on, is there a general rule for that? Thanks Smile
  
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Susankay  #505823  Sat, 26 Apr 08 09:35 PM

disclose -> dis-close

"dis" is a common prefix for many words. The "s" has its own strong sound: dis-respect, dis-pute, dis-card

 

mistreat -> mis-treat 

"mis" is also a common prefix. mis-took,mis-place. It also has a strong "s" sound.

 

Wisconsin -> Wis-con- sin : both "s" have a strong sound in this name.


 

  
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Kooyeen  #507312  Tue, 29 Apr 08 10:11 PM
Hi,
yes, but I was referring to aspiration of T's, K's and P's. I eventually found out they are aspirated after S when the S is part of a different phoneme. So the prefix "mis-" is a phoneme, and so the T in mistune (mis-tune) is aspirated. Any other opinion is still welcome, of course. Smile
  
Pter  #509689  Mon, 05 May 08 08:36 AM
Hi Kooyeen,

This is what J.C. Wells said:

English /p t k/ are aspirated when initial in a full-vowelled syllable. Elsewhere they have less aspiration or none. Hence the aspiration of the /p/ after the /m/ in plum pie, but its absence in plump eye. The /t/ of a tease is aspirated, as is that of attack /ə.ˈtæk/, but not that of at ease. 

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/syllabif.htm

There are a lot of things in this article that I don't quite understand.  But I think it may be something you are looking for and you would be able to understand it better than I do.

  
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Kooyeen  #510010  Mon, 05 May 08 07:33 PM
Hey! There's a lot of stuff there... maybe too much, but I'll take a look, thanks.Wink
I saw they talk about "syllabification", and that's one thing I was interested about. Because whether a T after an S is aspirated or not depends on whether the T is in considered to be in a different syllable or not. And another relate issue is... is the P in HAPPY part of the first or second syllable? On that page, they say it's HAP-EE, but Merriam Webster says it's HA-PEE, with no stress on PEE so that the P is not aspirated. The only difference would be the vowel length, but I've already opened a thread about vowel length, and no one seems to be interested, lol. I can tell the difference in length between the vowel in GOD and the vowel in GOT, but the situation seems to be more complex in polysyllabic words, and I also noticed sometimes native speakers use long vowels for emphasis instead of the short ones. Go figure.
  
Pter  #510131  Tue, 06 May 08 12:48 AM
In my 16th edition Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary, it says, in the introduction,

although native speakers may well find no difficulty in dividing words into syllables, it seems that learners of English have trouble in doing so, . . . 

No completely satisfactory scheme of syllable division can be produced - all sets of ruls will throw up some cases which cannot be dealt with properly.

It then describes the 'Maximal Onsets Principle' as follows:

where possible, syllables should be divided in such a way that as many consonants as possible are assigned to the beginning of the syllable to the right rather than to the end of the syllable to the left.  However, when this would result in a syllable ending with a stressed /ɪ/, /e/, /æ/, /ʌ/, /ɒ/ or /ʊ/, it is considered that this would constitute a violation of English phonotactics, and the first (or only) intervocalic consonant is assigned to the preceding syllable; thus the word 'better' is divided /'bet.ər/. In the case of unstressed short vowels, /e/, /æ/, /ʌ/ and /ɒ/ are also prevented from appearing in syllable-final position; however, unstressed  /ɪ/ and /ʊ/ are allowed the same "privilege of occurrence" as /ə/ when a consonant begins a following syllable, and may therefore occur in final position in unstressed syllables except pre-pausally.

 The dictionary puts the syllabic boundary after the p in happy.

  
CalifJim  #510135  Tue, 06 May 08 01:02 AM
No aspiration in any of these cases;  disclose, mistreat, Wisconsin -- just a neutral c, t, c.  Well, maybe a little on that t -- mostly because of the following r, I'd guess.  And no, there is no general rule for anything weird going on -- that I know of.

As for syllabification, I'd say dis-close, mis-treat, Wi-scon-sin. 

CJ 

  
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Kooyeen  #510554  Tue, 06 May 08 10:23 PM

CalifJim
No aspiration in any of these cases;  disclose, mistreat, Wisconsin

Hi,
that's interesting. It seems everyone pronounces them their own way then. I saw (in a forum) several people aspirate the C in "disclose". As for "mistreat", I learned to produce all my TR as something like "CHR" unless it's STR, so it was probably a bad example. If you said ""mistune" (tune -> mistune), would you aspirate the T? I would, because it's part of a different part (morpheme?)
  
CalifJim  #511049  Thu, 08 May 08 03:01 AM
Kooyeen
If you said ""mistune" (tune -> mistune), would you aspirate the T? I would, because it's part of a different part (morpheme?)
I would probably aspirate that t at least a little, but not for the reason you give (I think).  I think it's the stress pattern, tune being relatively stressed, that pushes me toward aspirating that t.  Nevertheless, an unaspirated t in that position (after an s) sounds perfectly fine as well.  You may be trying to fine tune your pronunciation below the noise level, if you know what I mean.

CJ 

  
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