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Basic semantic meanings of modal auxiliaries

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milky  #106808  Thu, 09 Jun 05 05:35 AM
For a lot of speakers, "shall" is equal to "will". For some, myself included, they are close in meaning, but "shall" has the extra meaning of "if it is anything to do with me. I'm a British English speaker though, so this could be the reason I see it that way. It is similar to the distinction between can/may. Originally, "may" had that "if it is anything to do with me" attched to it and "can" did not, but nowadays speaker use both as equals.

May I open the window, please?
Can I open the window, please?

In fact, one study of that pair says that "can" is nowadays far more common in polite requests than "may" is.

  
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Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".
Roro  #106841  Thu, 09 Jun 05 07:10 AM
Hello, milky
(The question is ... I'm not sure if we could call the speaker's plan or decision as internal evidence.)
You misunderstand me. There's immediate internal and external evidence that help choose "going to" and then, for other expressions, there' plans and intentions.
This is not always perfect as some speakers choose to use "will" instead, but I'm talking about the general use of these words.

Seems ... I'm beginning to understand you at last (thank goodness!).

Still I feel uneasy about your approach, though (sorry, I'm acting big...!).

(Thai is I don't know why we should find out only one core meaning to each auxiliary form...?
Because this is the question proposed here...? )

I'd like to make the sum of my ideas and compare it with your's ...

Good day!
  
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Roro  #106843  Thu, 09 Jun 05 07:34 AM
A prophet told me yesterday : I will die in 2050.
This is a one. There's no modal meaning.

For me there is. The prophet perceives the present situation and announces the inevitability.

Ah-huh! Now I'm beginning to understand how firm your opinion is.
It makes this discussion more interesting, though.

See you!
  
milky  #106865  Thu, 09 Jun 05 09:17 AM
Good.

Just tell me how the prophet knows that the person will die.

At present the "signs" in front of him, tell him what will take place later. Prophets believe in Fate, and fate is usually filled with inevitability, right?
  
milky  #106867  Thu, 09 Jun 05 09:20 AM
The good thing is, in a free world, you don't have to find one core meaning. I am generally comfortable with the core meanings that Lewis offers. They help me understand the related meanings that those modals take on. You have to find what is best for you.
  
Roro  #106886  Thu, 09 Jun 05 10:47 AM
Hello milky, can I make a digression here?

(It will be important for me, probably, to make my standpoint clearer.)
The following passage is from Time and Narrative, vol.1, written by Paul Ricoeur:

The Aporias of the Experience of Time -- Book II of Augustine's Confessions

(..) Two prior remarks have to be made. First, I begin my reading of Book II of the Confessions at chapter 14:17 with the question: "What is time?" (..) The Augustinian analysis of time offers a highly interrogative and even aporetical character which none of the ancient theories of time, from Plato to Platinus, had carried to such a degree of acuteness. (..) This aporetical character of the pure reflection on time is of the utmost importance for all that follows in the present investigation.
First, it must be admitted that in Augustine there is no pure phenomenology of time. Perhaps there never will be one. (..)

This aporetical style, in addition, takes on a special significance in the oveall strategy of the present work. A constant thesis of this book will be that speculation on time is an inconclusive rumination to which narrative activity alone can respond. Not that this activity solves the aporias through substitution. If it does resolve them, it's in a poetical and not a theoretical sense of the word. (..)

The skeptical argument is well-known: time has no being since the future is not yet, the past is no longer, and the present does not remain. And yet we do speak of time as having being. We say that things to came will be, that things past were, and that things present are passing away. Even passing away is not nothing. It is remarkable that it is language usage that provisionally provides the resistance to the thesis of nonbeing. We speak of time and we speak meaningfully about it, and this shores up an assertion about the being of time.


Your argument somewhat reminds me of Augustine, milky .. !
But there's available another position ... that is ... it's language, not our perception of time (or situations), which makes the concept of time meaningful.
  
milky  #106887  Thu, 09 Jun 05 10:55 AM
But there's available another position ... that is ... it's language, not our perception of time (or situations), which makes the concept of time meaningful. >

Could you expand on that before I respond?
  
Roro  #106892  Thu, 09 Jun 05 11:06 AM
!? ... it's not so easy, milky ... !
First of all these matters are very easily misunderstood. And second, I know almost nothing about your concept of time ( I got an impression that your point of view is similar to Augustine's, though ... ).

I don't know what I can do. I will try, at least. See you later!
  
Roro  #107038  Thu, 09 Jun 05 06:07 PM
Hello, milky. In response to your request, I add (i) some data from Augustine's Confession, (ii) rough sketch of P.Ricoeur's thesis. As to (ii) I need more time, so I quote here only (i). The following is a quite arbitrary extract from Augustine's Confession:

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[Ch.14] For what is time? Who can easily and briefly explain it? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks me, I do not know. Yet I say with confidence that I know that if nothing passed away, there would be no past time; and if nothing were still coming, there would be no future time; and if there were nothing at all, there would be no present time. But, then, how is it that there are the two times, past and future, when even the past is now no longer and the future is now not yet?

[Ch.18] Give me leave, O Lord, to seek still further. For if there are times past and future, I wish to know where they are. But if I have not yet succeeded in this, I still know that wherever they are, they are not there as future or past, but as present. For if they are there as future, they are there as "not yet"; if they are there as past, they are there as "no longer." Wherever they are and whatever they are they exist therefore only as present. Although we tell of past things as true, they are drawn out of the memory -- not the things themselves, which have already passed, but words constructed from the images of the perceptions which were formed in the mind, like footprints in their passage through the senses. My childhood, for instance, which is no longer, still exists in time past, which does not now exist. But when I call to mind its image and speak of it, I see it in the present because it is still in my memory. Whether there is a similar explanation for the foretelling of future events -- that is, of the images of things which are not yet seen as if they were already existing -- I confess, O my God, I do not know. But this I certainly do know: that we generally think ahead about our future actions, and this premeditation is in time present; but that the action which we premeditate is not yet, because it is still future. When we shall have started the action and have begun to do what we were premeditating, then that action will be in time present, because then it is no longer in time future.

Whatever may be the manner of this secret foreseeing of future things, nothing can be seen except what exists. But what exists now is not future, but present. When, therefore, they say that future events are seen, it is not the events themselves, for they do not exist as yet (that is, they are still in time future), but perhaps, instead, their causes and their signs are seen, which already do exist. Therefore, to those already beholding these causes and signs, they are not future, but present, and from them future things are predicted because they are conceived in the mind. These conceptions, however, exist _now_, and those who predict those things see these conceptions before them in time present. Let me take an example from the vast multitude and variety of such things.
Future events, therefore, are not yet. And if they are not yet, they do not exist. And if they do not exist, they cannot be seen at all, but they can be predicted from things present, which now are and are seen.

[Ch.20] But even now it is manifest and clear that there are neither times future nor times past. Thus it is not properly said that there are three times, past, present, and future. Perhaps it be said rightly that there are three times: a time present of things past; a time present of things present; and a time present of things future. For these three do coexist somehow in the soul, for otherwise I could not see them. The time present of things past is memory; the time present of things present is direct experience; the time present of things future is expectation. If we are allowed to speak of these things so, I see three times, and I grant that there are three. Let it still be said, then, as our misapplied custom has it: "There are three times, past, present, and future." I shall not be troubled by it, nor argue, nor object -- always provided that what is said is understood, so that neither the future nor the past is said to exist now. There are but few things about which we speak properly -- and many more about which we speak improperly -- though we understand one another's meaning.

[Ch.26] .. it appears to me that time is nothing other than extendedness; but extendedness of what I do not know. This is a marvel to me. The extendedness may be of the mind itself.

[Ch.28] .. the mind expects, it attends, and it remembers; so that what it expects passes into what it remembers by way of what it attends to. Who denies that future things do not exist as yet? But still there is already in the mind the expectation of things still future. And who denies that past things now exist no longer? Still there is in the mind the memory of things past. Who denies that time present has no length, since it passes away in a moment? Yet, our attention has a continuity and it is through this that what is present may proceed to become absent. Therefore, future time, which is nonexistent, is not long; but "a long future" is "a long expectation of the future." Nor is time past, which is now no longer, long; a "long past" is "a long memory of the past."
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I should have abridged my quote more, but I couldn't ...! Or I cut out some important places...?

Well, let's call it a day.
  
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