1 2 Glee: My gratitude for the help with my previous question about subjuntive!Please check out the following sentences: "He will not find the key to the door UNTIL he presses the buttons in the right order." "John sat up watching TV UNTIL his father came back." Could I replace UNTIL in these two sentences with BEFORE? Thanks in advance. New Member 49 Hello Glee I'm an English learner from Japan and I think as an English learner you are more advanced than me. But let me try to your question. I think both of the sentences you give have no grammatical problem. You can use BEFORE instead of UNTIL but I think the meaning will change slightly by the replacement. I understand UNTIL and BEFORE the way as below. Event-1 UNTIL Event-2 Event-1 continues up to the time when Event-2 begins. Event-1 BEFORE Event-2 Event-1 occurs prior to the time when Event-2 begins. Not Event-1 UNTIL Event-2 Event-1 occurs just at the time when Event-2 begins Not Event-1 BEFORE Event-2 Event-1 occurs at any time after the time when Event-2 begins. If my understanding is correct, your sentences (with UNTIL and with BEFORE) could be taken as follows. (1.a) "John sat up watching TV UNTIL his father came back" Suppose John's father came back at 10 PM, then this sentence means; "John stopped watching TV at 10 PM" (1.b) "John sat up watching TV BEFORE his father came back." The meaning of this sentence is rather ambiguous. It could be interpreted various ways like; "John sat up watching TV from 7 PM until 11 PM". or even; "John sat up watching TV from 7 PM until 9 PM" (2.a) "He will not find the key to the door UNTIL he presses the buttons in the right order." He will find the key when he presses the buttons. (2.b) "He will not find the key to the door BEFORE he presses the buttons in the right order." He will find the key after he presses the buttons. I am quite unsure about this answer and I'm afraid I made many mistakes. Please wait teachers' comments. paco Senior Member 4,095  In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English. Paco - are you Japanese? Your screen name sounds Mexican and your signature line is Spanish, and I am confused! I hope you don't mind my asking. As usual, I think your analysis is excellent. I would suggest only one correction - in (1.b) I think the time of watching TV could end before 10 p.m. or at 10 p.m., but probably not after. --khoff  Veteran Member 5,341   Native speaker of American English (but not a grammar expert). FRIEND REQUESTS WILL BE IGNORED. Don't take it personally -- I just don't understand the whole idea of... Hello Khoff Thank you for the correction. Yes the "11 PM" in (1.b) should be "10 PM". It was so serious a mistake that could mislead Glee and other people. I'm sorry for this, Glee. By the way I'm 1000 % Japanese. I'm using Paco as my screen name because my four old Spanish friends were called Paco and because I love San Francisco where I stayed for a year one and a half decades ago. paco Senior Member 4,095 In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English. Generally speaking, "until" is very much like "before" after a main clause with a negative. So you can replace in the first and not in the second without too drastic a change of meaning. CJ "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche I'd agree with you, CJ, but how about this? It will not be long (before/until) he comes back. I think 'before' is the right choice for this sentence. I am glad Glee has brought up this question. I'd like to present my observation on the 'until/before' issue, but sadly I am afraid it's not always valid one. So, I'd like to start my comments by using the word 'mostly.' Mostly, 'before' seems to be preferred when main clauses have temporal concepts such as 'long,' 'X days,' 'Y weeks,' 'Z months,' just to name a few. Without temporal concepts, 'until' seems to gain currency. ex1)He should be in hospital for at least three weeks before he is allowed to go home. ex2)He should be in hospital until he is allowed to go home. ex3)It will take 50 years or even a century before the species restores itself to its number of a decade ago. ex4)It won't take as many as 50 years before the species restores itself to its number of a decade ago. ex5)I will stay here for 6 months before I go back to my country. ex6)I will stay here until I am asked to leave. These examples of my own creating show how I would choose between 'until' and 'before.' You may have different opinions. I am looking forward to hearing them. Good night, CJ. Full Member 269 It will not be long (before/until) he comes back.I agree. In fact I think my little "rule of thumb" applies in far fewer than 100% of the cases we could invent. I won't wait [until / *before] 8 o'clock for you to finish that task.  CJ "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Glee: Thanks, guys. I had not expected to learn so much when I posted this question.Your replies have really clarified the minute differences between the two words. And, we've even learned that Paco is Janpanese. New Member 49 Hello Glee You are welcome! One thing I forgot to say is: (1) Event 1(=V1) UNTIL Event 2 (2) Event 1(=V1) BEFORE Event 2 The construct (1) requires a stative verb or progressive tense for V1. The construct (2) sounds natural rather when V1 is a non-stative verb. paco Senior Member 4,095 In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English. More
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