Beginning to define the difference.

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milky  #379821  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:10 AM

<That's difficult to answer, as the quotation doesn't tell me what that "kind of English" is. >

You can read it in the pages of CGEL that you linked us to*. It describes CGEL's use of the term Standard English in said publication.

*Posted below.

  
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Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".
milky  #379823  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:15 AM

<Certainly "Me and Kim saw X" is "widely accepted" in the UK, for example.>

You asked if I agreed with CGEL regarding the grammaticality in Standard English of that construction. I assume then that you have an idea of what you mean by Standard English. Is "Me an Kim saw..." Standard English, in your sense of the term?

  
milky  #379825  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:21 AM
 MrPedantic wrote:

and 'widely accepted' means?

That's the trouble with the quotation: it doesn't tell us in what contexts or by whom that "kind of English" is "widely accepted", or even what that "kind of English" is (except that it's "widely accepted"; which is where we came in).

MrP

Here's the context. The description of the the term Standard English that the folks at CGEL are using when they say the above:

"Standard versus non-standard

Perhaps the most subtle concept we have to rely on is the one that picks out the particular variety of Present-day English we describe, which we call Standard English. Briefly (for we will return to the topic below), we are describing the kind of English that is widely accepted in the countries of the world where English is the language of government, education, broadcasting, news publishing, entertainment, and other public discourse. In a large number of countries (now running into scores), including some where most of the people have other languages as their first language, English is used for most printed books, magazines, newspapers, and public notices; for most radio and television broadcasting; for many or most film scripts, plays, poetry, and other literary art; for speeches, lectures, political addresses, proclamations, official ceremonies, advertisements, and other general announcements. In these countries there is a high degree of consensus about the appropriate variety of English to use. The consensus is confirmed by the decisions of broadcasting authorities about the kind of English that will be used for public information announcements, newscasts, commentaries to broadcasts of national events such as state funerals, and so on. It is confirmed by the writing found in magazines, newspapers, novels, and non-fiction books; by the editing and correcting that is done by the publishers of these; and by the way writers for the most part accept such editing and correcting of their work. This is not to say that controversy cannot arise about points of grammar or usage. There ismuch dispute, and that is precisely the subject matter for prescriptive usage manuals. Nonetheless, the controversy about particular points stands out against a backdrop of remarkably widespread agreement about how sentences should be constructed for such purposes as publication, political communication, or government broadcasting. This widespread agreement defines what we are calling Standard English.

National versus international

Finally, we note that this book is not intended to promote any particular countrys variety of Standard English as a norm; it is to apply internationally...

http://www.cambridge.org/assets/linguistics/cgel/chap1.pdf

  
milky  #379826  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:24 AM

<(which doesn't exist)>

Does God exist for the people who say He does?

  
milky  #379827  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:31 AM

<On the other hand, PG is incomplete, because it doesn't deal with anything except its invented "standard English". >

The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (CGEL) only deals with what the writers of that publication call Standard English. Its writers claim that they give a descriptive treatment of that form of English. Do you agree that it is possible to write about Standard English (see the CGEL definition above) in a descriptive way? Or, do you think that all grammars of Standard English are prescriptive?

  
milky  #379828  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:33 AM
 MrPedantic wrote:

Sorry, no: I meant the passage I quoted at the top of this page, with the "Me and Kim" sentence.

Do you see it as a prescriptive statement, Mr P? If so, why?

  
milky  #379830  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:40 AM
 MrPedantic wrote:

and 'widely accepted' means?

That's the trouble with the quotation: it doesn't tell us in what contexts or by whom that "kind of English" is "widely accepted", or even what that "kind of English" is (except that it's "widely accepted"; which is where we came in).

MrP

I add this quote, also from CGEL:

"National versus international

Finally, we note that this book is not intended to promote any particular country’s variety of Standard English as a norm; it is to apply internationally."

http://www.cambridge.org/assets/linguistics/cgel/chap1.pdf

  
Kooyeen  #380116  Fri, 15 Jun 07 08:19 PM
 MrPedantic wrote:

[1] i a.
It is clear whom they had in mind. b. It’s clear who they had in mind.

ii a. Kim and I saw the accident. b. !Kim and me saw the accident.

In [ i ], both versions belong to Standard English (what is standard English?), with [ a ] somewhat formal (formal standard English?), and [ b ] neutral (who finds it neutral?) or slightly informal (who finds it informal?). There is no difference in grammaticality (according to what grammar?). But in [ ii ], the [ a ] version is standard (again, what is it?), the [ b ] version non-standard (why? what does this mean?); we use the ‘!’ symbol to mark a construction or form as ungrammatical in Standard English (?) but grammatical in a non-standard dialect (so everything that is non-standard is dialect?).



Hi MrP, that one?
I already commented in the quotation. What is standard English? I said that it doesn't exist because I think it is impossible to define exactly.
Let's take a look at Milky's post, where "standard English" was defined by CGEL. Well, it seems to me that they want to call "standard" the kind of English used in formal situations, doesn't it seem so? Fine, but what is the reason why formal English must always be the standard one for everyone and everywhere?
Descriptive grammar accepts formal English and prescriptive grammar, but it also goes on describing other different usages, and tells you when and where certain structures are found and common.

Take "y'all". Prescriptive grammar says it's non-standard. Why? Just because it's not part of what they defined as standard, which is some kind of formal English.
Descriptive grammar can't say it's non-standard, because the standard varies according to the situation, so defining only one standard would be misleading. It might tell you that "y'all" is not found in formal writing, but it is found in certain kinds of informal writing (comic books, some novels, advertisements, etc.). And it might tell you that it is very common in informal speech in some southern regions. So, would it be fair to tell that it is non-standard? After all, you could even say that it is standard in informal southern speech.

  
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MrPedantic  #380188  Fri, 15 Jun 07 11:35 PM

The consensus is confirmed by the decisions of broadcasting authorities about the kind of English that will be used for public information announcements, newscasts, commentaries to broadcasts of national events such as state funerals, and so on. It is confirmed by the writing found in magazines, newspapers, novels, and non-fiction books; by the editing and correcting that is done by the publishers of these; and by the way writers for the most part accept such editing and correcting of their work.

In the article I submit to Descriptive Linguistics Weekly, I include the following sentence:

Me and Jacques Derrida used to spend many a happy afternoon knocking back the Jack Daniels and laughing about poor old Roland and that milk float.

A few weeks later, I receive the proofs. The editor has changed "Me and Jacques Derrida" to "Jacques Derrida and I".

I call him up.

MrP:  What the *** do you think you're doing with my MS? What's all this "JD and I" nonsense?

Editor:  That's just "Standard English", old boy. We are a prestigious publication. We can't have any of your non-standard stuff in our magazine.

— "Standard English"? Who says it's Standard English? And what gives you the right to decide what's "standard" and what's "non-standard"?

— The CGEL, as a matter of fact, on both counts. Look it up, old chap, if you don't believe me. Chapter 1: see under "Me and Kim". As for "Standard English", that's easy: "The consensus...is confirmed by the writing found in magazines, newspapers, novels, and non-fiction books".

— Well, that's ok. If you leave my text as it is, it will be "the writing found in magazines". So then it'll be "Standard English", by your definition.

— I'm afraid it doesn't work quite like that, MrP. Read on: "[and] by the editing and correcting that is done by the publishers of these." So you see, I outrank you, old boy. I have edited and corrected your text; ergo, it's now Standard English.

— Wait a minute. I ask you why you've corrected my text. You say, because it wasn't standard English. I then ask you, what makes your version standard English. And you say, because it's the version I've corrected your text to. Is that what you're saying?

— In a nutshell, old boy, yes.

— <expletives removed by mod> <hangs up>

— [To self: ] Now there's a curious thing. It says in the CGEL that "writers for the most part accept such editing and correcting of their work"...but MrP didn't sound very happy at all...

MrP

  
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