Can't have to be replaced by couldn't?

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NON CONFORMER  #64060  Wed, 29 Dec 04 12:22 PM
Let me point out, JTT, that the issue at hand was whether "can't" could be used instead of "couldn't", so I have simply gone through the tenses, to identify where it was or not permissible, as well as stressing the varying functions of "just" with respect to the tenses, which teachers often fail to explain. Nonetheless, it is not common, at least in standard English, to say:

"I've just found out I can't have renewed my lease."

The use of "can't# doesn't quite hold here. It is better to say:

"I've just found out I couldn't have renewed my lease."

Thus, my stating that the use of "couldn't", here, as obligatory. As to my use of the perfect tense:

"I've just found out..."

Was to pinpoint that, there being no definite time association intended, it should be used in prference to:

"I just found out..."

That, being a past simple construction, should be associated with, or, complemented by a definite time in the past. Thank you for your comment, anyway, food for thought is food for a better understanding, which, I expect, is the objective of this forum.

NON C
  
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taiwandave  #64116  Wed, 29 Dec 04 07:37 PM
We must distinguish between the grammatical definition of verb tense and the semantic sense of reference in time. For example:

1. I wish school started tomorrow.
2. You said that school started tomorrow.
3. School started yesterday.

In all of the above, “started” is a past-tense (preterite) verb-form. But only in [3] does it actually refer to past time.

What we must learn from this is that the past-tense form of the verb does not always refer to past time.

Another lesson: woe to those who criticize the mighty Mr. Macabre.
  
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just the truth  #64135  Wed, 29 Dec 04 10:11 PM
NC:
Let me point out, JTT, that the issue at hand was whether "can't" could be used instead of "couldn't", so I have simply gone through the tenses, to identify where it was or not permissible, as well as stressing the varying functions of "just" with respect to the tenses, which teachers often fail to explain.

JJT: I appreciate that this is what you"ve tried to do, NC.


Nonetheless, it is not common, at least in standard English, to say:

"I've just found out I can't have renewed my lease."

The use of "can't# doesn't quite hold here. It is better to say:

"I've just found out I couldn't have renewed my lease."

Thus, my stating that the use of "couldn't", here, as obligatory.

JTT: How common something is has nothing to do with its grammaticality or its acceptability, NC. The structure under discussion, is common enough in standard English that we know it is standard English.

Googling the phrase, "He can't have been" versus "He couldn't have been" yields an 854 to 38,200 usage ratio, respectively. All this points out is that most language situations do not need the "extreme" emotional aspects that a "can't have + PP" engenders. This is akin to the use of for asking permission versus . That is used much more often doesn't preclude the possibility of using .

The reason your sentence sounds rather strange is because it doesn't match up semantically to the situation. There aren't any grammatical reasons to exclude it and that was the issue. Here is a situation where it does work.

A: He renewed his lease with me yesterday.

B: I've just come across some info that tells me that he can't have renewed his lease as you say he did because he died five days ago.."


NC: As to my use of the perfect tense:

"I've just found out..."

Was to pinpoint that, there being no definite time association intended, it should be used in prference to:

"I just found out..."

That, being a past simple construction, should be associated with, or, complemented by a definite time in the past. Thank you for your comment, anyway, food for thought is food for a better understanding, which, I expect, is the objective of this forum.

JTT: That might be an excellent bit of theory, NC, but that's not one of the reasons that the present perfect is chosen by ENLs. I'm afraid that studies of actual language use just doesn't provide support for this theory. Nor do language sources unless you have some that I'm not aware of. If you do I'd love to see them.

I'd like to thank you for your comments too. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with disagreeing. How else can you get to the truth?


  
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just the truth  #64138  Wed, 29 Dec 04 10:21 PM
We must distinguish between the grammatical definition of verb tense and the semantic sense of reference in time. For example:

1. I wish school started tomorrow.
2. You said that school started tomorrow.
3. School started yesterday.

In all of the above, “started” is a past-tense (preterite) verb-form. But only in [3] does it actually refer to past time.

What we must learn from this is that the past-tense form of the verb does not always refer to past time.

JTT: That's so true, TD, how so true. But the modal verbs are a whole nother ballgame. In modern English, they are tenseless. That's why Mr M can't explain the inconsistencies. No one, Mr M, there's not a soul on earth who can make modern English follow this errant belief. It just can't be done.


Another lesson: woe to those who criticize the mighty Mr. Macabre.

JTT: I wasn't criticising Mr M. I was pointing out what I believe to be errors in the traditional analysis of language. That has got to be what this site is all about; wouldn't you agree?
  
taiwandave  #64317  Thu, 30 Dec 04 05:49 PM
JTT: I was just kidding about criticizing Mr M. Critical analysis is indeed what the website is all about.

If I'm wrong - or you think I might be - I want to know about it. I'm sure we all feel the same way.

Even Mr M has got to be fallible - assuming, of course, that he is indeed human. Sometimes I wonder.
  
NON CONFORMER  #64319  Thu, 30 Dec 04 06:00 PM
I agree with you JTT, in that quite a lot of English is not adequately analysed, and as a result, rather than simplifying it, a lot of modern approaches tend to plague it with grammatical vocabulary, sometimes harder to unravel than the issue at hand. I have been doing some research work on the English structure, partly concerned with the relative time assignation for the tenses, which has led me to a different interpretation of the concept of tense, although my references respect the standard opinion, in order not to confuse anyone unnecessarily. What is called the truth varies with each dawn, and, we must take steps to adapt to what the future brings. Never thought a forum of this kind could be so stimulating. Glad to be here. By the way: A happy new year to everybody.
  
MrPedantic  #64382  Fri, 31 Dec 04 12:58 AM
Interesting thread.

To my (BrE) ears, 'I just found out I can't...' has a distinct AmE sound to it. I would take it for an elided version of 'I've just...', i.e.

1. 'I've just found out I can't renew my lease' – in the disbelieving tone of the would-be leaser of whatever-it-is who walks back into the lobby where her boyfriend has been flicking through the women's magazines.

'I just found out I couldn't...', on the other hand, seems to require something more:

2. 'I just found out (why) I couldn't renew my lease.'

or

3. 'I just found out I couldn't renew my lease (if I wanted to).'

Just my BrE 2 cents.

MrP
  
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Guest  #67289  Wed, 12 Jan 05 06:25 PM
Hello, just an outside opinion...

I just found out that I can't renew my lease

I believe this sentence is more correct due to the presence of 'just'. It implies that the person is still reacting to the news.

I found out that I could renew my lease

This would be the appropriate reply if he was over the initial shock

  
CalifJim  #67360  Thu, 13 Jan 05 03:36 AM
Interesting thread. Nevertheless, "The doesn't have anything to do with past time or past tense" simply doesn't ring true to me. At the time of his speaking (past time) he didn't want to go.
Any basic grammar book will tell you "didn't" is the past tense of "doesn't". Also, I don't think "to do" is a modal. Moreover, I'm not inclined to agree that modals only introduce the personal, emotive feelings of speakers. "One must breathe oxygen to remain alive" seems to me a rather unemotional fact (unless one is drowning, I suppose!). "You can't add 2 and 2 and get 5" is another rather impersonal utterance.
  
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"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
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