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milky  #274290  Fri, 29 Sep 06 08:43 PM

"N. Ellis (1996), for example, has suggested that learners bootstrap their way to grammar by first internalising and then analyzing fixed sequences. Classroom studies by Ellis (1984), Myles, Mitchell & Hooper (1998; 1999) and Myles (2004) demonstrate that learners often internalize rote-learned material as chunks, breaking them down for analysis later on."

http://www.asian-efl-journal.com/September_05_re.php

Is that statement true, learners?

  
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CalifJim  #275231  Mon, 02 Oct 06 09:09 AM
learners often internalize rote-learned material as chunks

True in spades, as they say!

You always have to start somewhere.  With a language you know nothing of, where do you start?  With other people's words.  The same as a child.  The child of Russian-speaking parents doesn't just spew forth Spanish one day.  He uses other people's words (e.g., his parents') as a starting point.  The central point of facility with language is that it is acquired through imitation (as opposed to analysis, for example).

I find that in learning a foreign language I can get quite a bit of mileage out of 300 - 400 set phrases which require little to no analysis - just memorized chunks.

(An aside:  I find the same thing is also true of opinions.  We all start with other people's opinions before we catch on to the idea of how to form our own.  Did you ever notice how children in grade school inevitably have the same prejudices as their parents?)

CJ
  
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milky  #275235  Mon, 02 Oct 06 09:16 AM
It was really a question for learners, Jim.
  
nona the brit  #275254  Mon, 02 Oct 06 10:12 AM

You didn't specify learners of English.

Jim has clearly been a 'learner' of  other languages. So have I, and I would have commented, but I see you are not interested in learners of other languages.

  
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milky  #275285  Mon, 02 Oct 06 12:47 PM
So you don't think "learners" implied NNES?
  
nona the brit  #275297  Mon, 02 Oct 06 02:02 PM
Well, your original quote was about second language acquisition in general, not just English, and this is in the linguistics forum, so no.
  
MrPedantic  #275480  Tue, 03 Oct 06 01:03 AM

It would be extraordinary if the experiences of NNESs when learning English were radically different from the experiences of NESs when learning other languages.

For instance, you've mentioned your own knowledge of Spanish in the past, Milky. Did you internalize rote-learned material as chunks, breaking them down for analysis later on? (And was much bootstrapping involved?)

MrP

  
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milky  #275496  Tue, 03 Oct 06 02:46 AM

<It would be extraordinary if the experiences of NNESs when learning English were radically different from the experiences of NESs when learning other languages.>

It would indeed, but at the moment I am only interested in the NNES experiences and views on this.

  
CalifJim  #275514  Tue, 03 Oct 06 04:07 AM
at the moment I am only interested in ...

Consider my comments retracted then.

CJ
  
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