Closed: Chinese / Koreans in groups vs. others...

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Clive Woodward  #23645  Thu, 26 Feb 04 08:21 AM
Chameleon, since you have unfairly or fairly introduced the "shoving an old lady out of a line" tactic to support your argument, would it then be fair of me to introduce the raping of young women by western servicemen in Asian counties (which is quite well documented) to support my argument that no one geneological group is particularly worse behaved than any another?
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last comment removed - Chameleon is not inciting anything - he/she's been clear about that - hitchhiker
  
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hitchhiker  #23657  Thu, 26 Feb 04 01:20 PM
Chameleon - You've been appropriately civil with your views up to this point; I don't see any reason to stop posting.
  
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hitchhiker  #23660  Thu, 26 Feb 04 01:30 PM
My response to the original post

a) I live around 100's of cultures and I'm fascinated by the good, bad and ugly of theirs and my own - You can't possibly imagine how happy I am we’re not all British!

b) We have a number of Korean / Chinese tourists here in Malta - I have observed a slight tendency for them to drift across roads (rather than cross them carefully) !Smile [:)] I worry when people do that, it's a quick way to get squished.

c) I've definitely noticed over the years that there are some cultures that have distinct social patterns that don't cross over into (mine) very well. It can be irritating, but usually all it takes is a few beers and a chat and their particular 'tendency' starts to make sense.

My girlfriend is Serbian – and they’ve got some funny traditions (to me) – like the person having the birthday has to pay for everything?? – Or maybe they just made that up when I had my last oneSmile [:)]

Don't really know enough about the culture in question (KOR/CH) - Dying to get over there and find out one day though.
  
chris  #23669  Thu, 26 Feb 04 02:19 PM
I have a few questions refering back to the original post,

Firstly, excuse my ignorance but what does 'rushing the buffet line' mean exactly. I've never come across this term (obviously American English). Is it something like 'barging the queue' at the Pizza Hut salad table?

Have you actually seen cases of tourists physically pushing locals around??? I live in a country where tourism generates approx 30% of GNP and I've never seen one case where a local was physically 'pushed'.

'Blocking the view of older people' - I thought that asians were rather 'short' in size!

'Jabbering constantly when they should be shutting the h*ll up' - Who is to say when someone can talk or not? Do you mean at the cinema etc??? (It's just the way you put that sentence - I would have phrased it differently!)

Chameleon, I'm only asking, have you exaggerated (just a little) in your post?
  
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Elena  #23674  Thu, 26 Feb 04 02:58 PM
My observations on tourist groups.

Triying to remember groups of people doing sightseeing in Spain, just East-Asians and German groups come to my mind. I don't know the country of the Asians, just that they are Asians.

The unique two things we notice and comment about them is that they take infinite number of photos. Also I've noticed that they smile a lot, and they look at your face always with a smile if you pass near to them, they never avoid seeing at the eyes and they make people to smile back. Well, I've oberved the clothes too, the clothes of women, always very comfortable and casual, totally according with the activity. At the museums I've seen them very attentive in both senses, attentive to the explanations of the guide and attentive in the sense of considerate with the place.

I am not feeling well saying these things. I know all I've perceived is positive but, talking about others...saying .."they are this, they..." is very uncomfortable, it islike if I wouldn't have any right to judge and comment, it is little impolite :(

Asians in the forum, feel free to comment about my casual clothes in my photo or about groups of Spaniards in your countries, if you want, in reply to my "gall".
  
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Chameleon  #23676  Thu, 26 Feb 04 03:22 PM
Perhaps I did exaggerate in my wording. However, all the incidents I mentioned in my original post, I have personally observed on multiple occasions (including the pushing) That's why it's so disturbing to me. Maybe it was just an unfortunate series of observations.

You're dead-on about "barging the queue". It's the same. As for the blocking the view of older people, there are plenty of tiny old people who are shorter than younger asians. Smile [:)] As nutrition improves around the world, all peoples naturally increase their mean height-at-age.

As for talking out of turn, I guess that would mostly be due to ignorance of local custom, which is violated regularly by all travellers. We can't even get our OWN citizens to turn off their $%@! cell phones during a movie! I retract that accusation. Maybe the wording wasn't great either. Got a little carried away!

And I would say it's completely fair to introduce the abhorrent behavior of young servicemen in Asia. If we want to talk about generalizations, there is no generalization more understandable than this one, unfair though it may be. Rape and pillage have been adequately demonstrated (rather infamously by Japan in WW2 and the US in Vietnam) to know no borders in wartime. Your point is well taken.

I suppose in my original post, when I asserted "Chinese and Korean tour groups are rude", I should have asked "ruder than what?" I think the data that's missing in my question is not only "how do these cultures act in a domestic situation", but also "how does my own culture act in an equivalent foreign situation?" This is something I have never observed and probably won't be able to do. My assessment of rudeness hinges on complete understanding of a foreign culture. I've tried to expose myself to Japanese culture as much as possible, but the more I learn about it, the less hope I have that I can ever truly understand every nuance in every situation, and this argument relies heavily on that surety. So I don't think I can give a fair assessment unless a native from those countries relays their observations of American tourists.

But then again, I shouldn't tolerate bad behavior simply because I know I can't vouch for my own in the same situation. That doesn't follow when I'm dealing with other Americans, so it shouldn't be any different for foreigners.
  
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hitchhiker  #23678  Thu, 26 Feb 04 03:31 PM
But then again, I shouldn't tolerate bad behavior .... that doesn't follow when I'm dealing with other Americans, so it shouldn't be any different for foreigners.

Absolutely - I'm so terrified that the world will tip-toe around race relations and we'll never truely understand each other - The only way to evolve past racism etc. is to discuss it and challenge issues head on. IMHO
  
rommie  #23690  Thu, 26 Feb 04 06:35 PM
I don't understand this thread.

I certainly have had the experience of observing people who jump queues, block the view in shows, and speak when it would be more appropriate not to do so. However, on not one of those occasions did I ever catch a glimpse of the person's passport, and it did not occur to me to ask of their nationality.

Since I do not believe in supernatural explanations, and since I find it unlikely that either Chameleon or anyone else has been going around sneaking a peek at people's passports, I must conclude that the supposed nationality of "offenders" can be nothing more than assumption. So I am forced to ask, assumption based on what?

I for one am certainly not able to deduce the nationality of a human being from their appearance alone, nor from their language or accent alone, and, though I am prepared to be proved wrong, on present evidence, I don't see how anyone else can do this definitively either.

In other words, we are not discussing the observed behaviours of Chinese or Korean people, we are discussing the observed behaviours of people assumed to be Chinese or Korean, and that is an entirely different matter.

Rommie
  
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Blinglish  #23695  Thu, 26 Feb 04 07:00 PM
Hi, folks! This is my first post here and I find myself very much interested in your debate and would like to say something about the original post that has triggered so much debate.
I'd like to let you know that I am Chinese, which perhaps may help you understand a bit how the Chinese act and why. I also stayed in North America for a year or so and had had the opportunity to know a lot of friends, Japanese, Korean, Canadian, as well as Chinese. I'll try to be as impartial and disinterested as possible.
It really takes more than a lifetime to explain the way people from other cultures behave because it is indeed a subject for anthropologists and sociologists. From my own point of view, the Koreans are very much like the Chinese in various ways, including their customs, their culture, and even their language (South Korea had reform on their writing system in the 60s I guess but they still use the Chinese writing system today on many occasions as do the Japanese.)
Let me jump to the topic right now. To understand why, as accused in the the original post, Chinese and Korean tourists rush buffet lines, we have to know the following statement: not all Chinese or Koreans rush buffet lines or block elderly people's views. Therefore, the acts accused of of some Chinese (I'll use Chinese here only from now on) may not represent the entire race of the Chinese. My statement here is that rushing buffet lines or talking out of turn are based on individual customs and habits, which indeed vary quite a lot from person to person.
You may be confused why I attribute this "rudeness" to an individual habit. Well, it is sort of like anthropological differences which can bring about cognitive gaps in understanding behaviours of people from other cultures. For instance, you might be irritated by the Japanese Noh, a form of drama which to this day still annoys me a lot when I hear it. You may also feel it odd to know that in some tribal society in Southwest China, people eat the dead bodies of the decease as a token of congratulation on his/her delivery from the mundane world. YOu may also feel it eccentric that in Tibet people expose dead bodies to carrion-eating vultures.
The point is that, traditionally, the Chinese were not aware of the "rudeness" of jumping lines and pushing (of course not pushing in the literal sense of the act) people. The reason for this, I guess, is that, due to the large population, people were always involved in fierce competitions. And they naturally found themselves "rushing buffet lines" and pushing people, not because they were really selfish and inconsiderate or not respectful of the elderly (on the contrary, the Chinese regards it a virtue to respect the elderly), but because, owing to the environemental crampness or crowd density, were forced one way or another to rush and push.
In rural areas in China, I guess this phenomenon will persist for perhaps decades if nobody tells them "Hey, according to international customs, it is rude to rush the line and it is selfish to talk loudly irrespective of the situation". Therefore, what I am saying is that the "rudeness" of the Chinese is not a purposeful exhibition, nor an ignorant and barbarous token of uncivility of whatever. It is simply and purely a cultural product which evolved in the face of "natural selection" owing to the density of population in China.
I myself have been learning English and English culture for more than 15 years and think that I understand the puzzlement of some people when they see such phenomena. But for me, it's like the moment of shock when I first knew in many countries people hug and kiss. Well, I thought at the moment that it would be too unhygienic and bizarre to do it. But again, from a Westerner's point of view, not hugging and kissing your mum at the airport would seem to be too indifferent and apathetic. Therefore, one of my conclusions is that all these are what we call cultural differences, which can really be perfect understood if we do not assess things from the point of view of ourselves. (The reasoning behind the accusation is like this: rushing the buffet line is rude (in America) --> Chinese toursts rush buffet lines. --> Chinese are rude)
You will have seen that the accusation is somewhat hasty based on a one-sided generalization without taking into account the complex factors that may underlie these simple yet abstract phenomena.
I am not counterattacking the starter of the post. But let me add something. I am not saying that people crowd and push everywhere in China. You probably won't see too much of crowding and pushing in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and other big cities. Obviously, in China, there is a polarization in the education of social etiquette in cities and rural areas. People in big cities identify themselves with metropolitan people who contact with the outside world. They naturally are aware of the conflict of customs in dealing with people from other cultures. So the thing is that China is undergoing tremendous changes in social customs in its encounter with other (Western) cultures.
I myself have been educated in much the similar way as an American or Englishman. I cannot understand why people push and crowd to get a seat on the bus. I always avoid large crowds in restaurants and in public places. I hate people smoke in my presence. I can also be offended by people who ply wine on me as a token of enthusiasm and intemacy. I am also annoyed by people who spit (not very many in cities, though). But the fact is that, there is such a hugh proportion of the population who have never in their life heard of any such Western social etiquette. They make noise when they eat noodles; they are absolutely not accustomed to say "Thank you" to their parents or husbands or wives; they never are aware that sneezing in public can be rude and perhaps nobody would say "Excuse me" after sneezing.
The same kind of difference exists everywhere when two cultures encounter. When I was in Canada, I was greatly disturbed to see a Canadian blow his nose loudly at the dinner table. I thought he was being rude too. Anyway, blowing the nose at the table can be very offensive and dirty in Chinese culture.
All in all, although I cannot understand why people behave in such a "rude" way, I have to know that these acts are deeply rooted in their world views, their education, their interpersonal contacts, and so forth.
The Chinese behave the same way in China as in other countries and when they behave in a way that may be offensive to a local, at least they are not aware of the consequence of their behaviour.
In a word, the Chinese are friendly and understanding. Rushing buffet lines does not mean that they are selfish and not willing to help or purposefully offending.


  
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