Conditional

1 2 3 4
   Share on Facebook  
MrPedantic  #83362  Wed, 23 Mar 05 11:17 PM
Hello Jack

To make this easier, I'll divide the sentence up into 4 sections:

'If I were older, |
that would make me an adult, |
a very responsible adult |
who drinks/drank carefully.'

The first two sections in each case make a standard type 2 conditional:

a) If I were older, that would make me an adult...

The 3rd section restates and redefines 'adult':

b) a very responsible adult

The 4th section further defines 'adult':

c) who drinks/drank carefully.

Since this is a type 2 conditional structure (i.e. an unreal hypothesis), the subordinate clause takes a verb in the 'unreal' past tense: 'drank' (= #2).

However, the final verb is quite remote from the other two verbs: a section intervenes. This means that the natural 'pull' towards a past tense verb ('drank') is weaker; some native speakers would therefore put the final verb into the present tense, as in #1.

It's also quite possible that someone would use a present tense for emphasis, or to make a point:

Scene: bar. MrP is 16 years old. There are several drinks in front of him. He's talking to his friends:

'If I were 2 years older, that would make me an adult – a very responsible adult who {here he lifts his glass in the air as a salute to his friends, puts it to his lips, and empties it} drinks carefully...But since I'm still only 16, and a feckless youth, I'm going to drink as much as I damn well please...'

Here, the tense of the final verb is in accord with real circumstances, rather than the unreal meaning of the sentence.

It's very similar to the previous examples: a case of 'changing horses in mid stream'. It's much easier to do this in the spoken language, because few of us retain more than a vague impression of the words we just heard.

MrP
  
Top 10 Contributor
Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004
Veteran Member (12,144)
Proficient SpeakerSystemAdministrator
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
Guest  #83799  Fri, 25 Mar 05 12:23 PM
I wonder if "were" could be used as I read in grammar books that "were" is the formal form of "be" in the subjunctive structure. "Was" is acceptable, as pointed out in grammar books.
  
jack112  #84796  Tue, 29 Mar 05 01:21 PM
Scenario: I live around here.

Are these correct? If not, why? What do they mean?

1. I wouldnt' have done that if I didn't live around here. (With 'didn't' here, it says that I still live around here?)
2. I wouldnt' have done that if I don't live around here. (What about this one? Is this one correct? Or I need the past tense 'didn't' if so, why?)

Which one would you use? Does it matter? Are #1 and #2 mixed conditionals? Which one is more correct and why?

3. I wouldnt' have done that if I hadn't lived around here. (I know this is correct but this makes the listen feel that you don't live around here anymore.)

Thanks.
  
Top 100 Contributor
Joined on Thu, Jul 22 2004
Regular Member (715)
MrPedantic  #84983  Wed, 30 Mar 05 01:26 AM
Hello Jack

1. I wouldn't have done that if I didn't live around here. (With 'didn't' here, it says that I still live around here?)
— That's right: you still live round here. It's a type 2 conditional.

2. I wouldn't have done that if I don't live around here. (What about this one? Is this one correct? Or I need the past tense 'didn't' if so, why?)
— Here, you have a type 1 if-clause with a type 3 main clause.

The type 3 main clause always refers to something in the past which didn't happen, whereas the type 1 if-clause relates to something that is still a possibility. This means it isn't strictly speaking a conditional statement; the if-clause is the basis for an inference. 'If I don't live round here, (then that means that) I wouldn't have done that'. It has a slightly amnesiac quality. Very rare context.

3. I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't lived round here. (I know this is correct but this makes the listen feel that you don't live around here anymore.)
— yes; if the speaker were still living there, he would say 'I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't still been living round here'; or 'I wouldn't have done that if I weren't still living round here'.

MrP
  
jack112  #85038  Wed, 30 Mar 05 07:53 AM
1. I wouldn't have done that if I didn't live around here. (How come this is a type 2 conditional? Why isn't it mixed? I have 'wouldn't have done' here?)

Isn't this a type 2 conditional:
2. If I were you, I would drive more carefully in the rain.

And this is a type 2 conditional too?
3. I wouldn't have done that if I weren't still living round here.

Thanks.
  
MrPedantic  #85055  Wed, 30 Mar 05 09:43 AM
Sorry, Jack, you're right: my mistake.

1. I wouldn't have done that if I didn't live around here = If I didn't live round here, I wouldn't have done that.

With a single action, you would use a type 3:

1a. If I hadn't kicked him, he wouldn't have squealed.

But where the 'if' verb relates to a continuous state or action, rather than a single action, it's sometimes possible to use a type 2 in your if-clause, and a type 3 in your main clause. So in #1, the imagined 'not living round here' isn't an action: it's a continuous state that stretches back from the present to the time of the 'doing that' referred to in the main clause.

Compare this with:

1b. ??If I didn't kick him, he wouldn't have squealed.

which doesn't have meaning as it stands (the 'kicking' here is a single action).

The structure is easier to put into context if we delete the negatives, e.g.

1c. I would have bought a guard dog too, if I lived round here.

2. If I were you, I would drive more carefully in the rain.
– Yes, type 2.

3. I wouldn't have done that if I weren't still living round here = If I weren't still living round here, I wouldn't have done that.

This is the same as #1: continuous state verb in a type 2 if-clause + type 3 main clause, e.g. (deleting the negatives again):

3a. If I were still living round here, I would have bought a guard dog too.

MrP
  
jack112  #85059  Wed, 30 Mar 05 10:17 AM
Okay, so this is a mixed conditonal right?

3a. If I were still living round here, I would have bought a guard dog too.


If so, why can't I use this mixed conditional?
1. If I am still living round here, I would have bought a guard dog too.

Or is it, imaginary verbs (would, didn't, could, weren't, etc.) should go with imaginary verbs? And Present (as will, can, is, etc) should go with present.

But this is correct right?
'If I don't live round here, (then that means that) I wouldn't have done that'. It has a slightly amnesiac quality.

There are two separate clauses?

Thanks.

  
Hela  #85203  Wed, 30 Mar 05 09:59 PM
Now I'm getting even more confused! Crying [:'(]

Please, do help me out!

3. I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't lived round here. (I know this is correct but this makes the listen feel that you don't live around here anymore.)
— yes; if the speaker were still living there, he would say 'I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't still been living round here'; or 'I wouldn't have done that if I weren't still living round here'.


1) If I say:

I wouldn't have bought a guard dog if I hadn't still been living in that seedy neighbourhood.
(What does this sentence mean exactly? Is the speaker still living in the place he's talking about ???)

2) To talk about a possibility in the past could we say:

"When we lived in the same appartment last year, my car broke down almost every week. If my car WAS (or HAD BEEN ?) working, I could drive (or COULD HAVE DRIVEN ?) you to the station in the morning. If not, you had to take a bus".

Many thanks,
Hela



  
Top 100 Contributor
Joined on Mon, Nov 15 2004
Tunisia
Regular Member (831)
paco2004  #85230  Thu, 31 Mar 05 12:28 AM
Hello Hela

Because I was living in the neighborhood, I bought a dog.

Angel [A] I was living in the neighborhood
Negation :
If I was not living in the neighborhood
But caution! The negation occurs ony in unreal world
And a grammar rule [one-step-more-past rule] demands
[REAL PAST] (indicative past)
-> [UNREAL PAST] (subjunctive past perfect)
If I had not been living in the neighborhood

Beer [B] I bought a dog
Predict the change of Beer [B] possibly to occur in the unreal world:
I did not buy a dog
But a grammar rule demands -
[PAST] (indicative past)
-> [Predicted PAST] (would have+past p.)
I would not have bought a dog

If I had not been living in the neighborhood, I would not have bought a dog.


paco
  
Top 25 Contributor
Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004
Senior Member (4,095)
In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.
1 2 3 4
AddThis Feed Button RSS Feed: ESL General English Grammar Questions
© 2008 MediaCET Ltd.
Terms and Conditions & Terms of Service