David  +  80178 Thu, 10 Mar 05 03:32 PM Perhaps califJim has shown a sense of humour which you have obviously failed to recognize. David Joined on Sat, Mar 8 2003 Regular Member 664

	just the truth  +  80182 Thu, 10 Mar 05 03:43 PM Perhaps califJim has shown a sense of humour which you have obviously failed to recognize. Perhaps, but "perhaps" is expressive of a low degree of certainty, David. I think I'll stick with what I stated. The record seems to better support it. just the truth Joined on Mon, Dec 27 2004 Regular Member 849

	MrPedantic  +  80199 Thu, 10 Mar 05 04:18 PM First question: a) Why is Group A's 'usage' privileged by Group C, JT? MrP MrPedantic Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004 Veteran Member 12,592 ...opella forensis / adducit febris...

	MrPedantic  +  80302 Fri, 11 Mar 05 12:30 AM "perhaps" is expressive of a low degree of certainty Of course, by the logic of JTT's earlier remark: 'perhaps is free to express whatever degree of certainty it wants'. MrP MrPedantic

	Casi  +  80371 Fri, 11 Mar 05 10:25 AM Dwight Bolinger - linguist "In language there are no licensed practitioners, but the woods are full of midwives, herbalists, colonic irrigationists, bonesetters and general-purpose witch doctors, some abysmally ignorant, others with a rich fund of practical knowledge - whom we shall lump together and call shamans. Sometimes their advice is sound. Sometimes it is worthless, but still it is sought because no one knows where else to turn." Does that apply to Bolinger's advice as well? Casi Joined on Sat, Sep 25 2004 Regular Member 547 Whom

	pieanne  +  80373 Fri, 11 Mar 05 10:32 AM my mistake, nothing to read here... pieanne Joined on Thu, Jan 20 2005 South of France ...But I'm Belgian! Veteran Member 7,517 I'm glad to help, but I'm not a native! And please excuse my typos...

	Casi  +  80374 Fri, 11 Mar 05 10:35 AM I wanna play! The argument could be stated as follows: 1. Group A says, "tom[e:]to." 2. Group B says, "tom[a:]to." 3. Group C supports "tom[e:]to" and disparages "tom[a:]to". MrP asks, "Why is Group A's 'usage' privileged by Group C? Answer: Group C is a supra-set of Group A. Casi

	MrPedantic  +  80523 Sat, 12 Mar 05 01:45 AM But if the person on the street is so good at avoiding [Me is going] and [Give I a break], and even former Rhodes Scholars and Ivy League professors can't seem to avoid [Me and Jennifer are going] and [Give Al and I a chance], might it not be the mavens that misunderstand English grammar, not the speakers? Two interesting implications of this passage: 1. Rhodes Scholars and Ivy League professors speak perfect English because they're Rhodes Scholars and Ivy League professors. 2. 'Give Al and me a chance' is incorrect. Three questions: a) #1 seems rather a toadying and uncritical point of view. Are professors and scholars never wrong? b) #2 is perplexing; many people would say 'give X and me a chance'; yet they have seemingly 'misunderstood English grammar'. What is the 'scientific basis' for stating that those who say 'give you and I' can be said to have 'understood' English grammar, while those who say 'give you and me' can't? c) By the logic of #2, must we also conclude that saying 'it's between they and we' is correct, while 'between them and us' isn't? I'll be interested to see whether the original poster can answer these questions. MrP MrPedantic Grammar, English Grammar

	MrPedantic  +  81992 Fri, 18 Mar 05 12:40 AM For more discussion, Post:81961 MrPedantic