descriptive or prescriptive

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MrPedantic  #160193  Sat, 19 Nov 05 12:48 AM
 Teo wrote:

%They invited my partner and I to lunch.

The above example is regularly used by a significant proportion of speakers of Standard English, and not generally thought by ordinary speakers to be non-standard; they pass unnoticed in broadcast speech all the time.

For further information, please consult The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, published by Cambridge University Press, 2002.

Curiously, I don't often hear this mistake from non-native speakers.

It's peculiarly irritating in the mouth of a native speaker mainly because it always seems to be uttered with an air of prissily conscious "correctness". It's no coincidence that the biggest offenders, you-and-I-wise, are the kind of people who in any case (and for many other reasons) deserve a good slap.

MrP

PS: What does "they" in "...they pass unnoticed..." refer back to, Teo, in the original text?

  
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CalifJim  #160241  Sat, 19 Nov 05 04:51 AM
It's peculiarly irritating in the mouth of a native speaker mainly because it always seems to be uttered with an air of prissily conscious "correctness".


It must be a British thing.  That's not my reaction to "... invited my partner and I ..." in the U.S.  In fact I barely have any reaction to it, to tell the truth.  (Well, a tiny light bulb in my brain tells me it's not correct, but other than that, it's rather ho-hum.)

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Teo  #160244  Sat, 19 Nov 05 05:29 AM

Another kind of illegitimate argument is based on analogy between one area of grammar and another. consider yet another construction where there is variation between nominative and accusative forms of pronouns:

[3] a. They invited me to lunch.       b. %They invited my partner and I to lunch.

The <%> symbol is again used to mark the [3b] example as typically used by some speakers of Standard English but not by others, though this time it is not a matter of regional variation. The staus of the construction in [3b] differs from that of It's me, which is undisputably normal in informal use, and from that of !Me and Kim saw her leave, which is unquestionably non-standard. What is different is that examples like [3b] are regularly used by a significant proportion of speakers of Standard English, and not generally thought by ordinary speakers to be non-standard; they pass unnoticed in broadcast speech all the time.

     Prescriptists, however, condemn the use illustrated by [3b], insisting that the 'correct' form is They invited my partner andme  to lunch. And here again they seek to justify the claim that [3b] is ungrammatical by an implicit analogy, this time with other situations found in English, such as the example seen in [3a]. In [3a] the pronoun functions by itself as direct object of the verb and invariably appears in accusative case. What is different in [3b] is that the direct object of the verb has the form of a coordination, not a single pronoun. Prescriptists commonly take it for granted that this difference is irrelevant to case assignment. They argue that because we have an accusative in [3a] we should also have an accusative in [3b], so the nominative I is ungrammatical.

     But why should we simply assume that the grammatical rules for case assignment cannot differentiate between a coordianated and a non-coordinated pronoun? As it happens, there is another place in English grammar where the rules are sensitive to this distinction - for virtually all speakers, not just some of them:

[4] a. I don't know if you are eligible.  b. *I don't know if she and you're eligible.

The sequence you are can be reduced to you're in [4a], where you is subject, but not in [4b], where the subject has the form of a coordination of pronouns. This shows us not only that a rule of English could apply differently to pronouns and coordinated pronouns, but that one rule actually does....

For further information, please read section 2.2 Disagreement between descriptist and prescriptist work in Chapter 1 of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, published by Cambridge University Press, 2002.

 

  
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Thank you very much for your reply.
Teo  #160252  Sat, 19 Nov 05 05:54 AM

"The superlative is often used for a comparison between two persons, items, etc [3a], though this is avoided in careful usage where the comparative [3] is preferred:

He is the younger (of the two brothers). [3]
He is the youngest (of the two brothers). [3a]"
A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, 1985

"Which (of these two) is the strongest?"
A Practical English Grammar, by A. J. Thomson & A. V. Martinet, 1980

[Mod's note] The same was already posted in post 160010.

  
paco2004  #160255  Sat, 19 Nov 05 06:33 AM
According to the X bar theory, the subject in the VP projection of D-structure gets the nominative case when it moves to the IP projection in S-structure. It means the nominative case in a predicate clause appears only before a finite verb for usual verbs. It would be the reason why people feel "It's me" is more natural than "It's I".

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MrPedantic  #160292  Sat, 19 Nov 05 09:39 AM
 Teo wrote:

Another kind of illegitimate argument...

Hello Teo

See also Post:73323, from long ago.

MrP

  
MrPedantic  #160321  Sat, 19 Nov 05 12:42 PM

I heard an interesting exchange between two phone-in presenters recently:

P: ...So give me and Q a call, and let us know what you think.

Q: (reprovingly) "Give Q and I a call."

P: I know that's right...but it doesn't sound right.

Q: It may not sound right, but it is right.

P: Well, anyway, give Q and myself a call, and let us know what you think...

 

  
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