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Differ between a preposition and an adverb in a phrasal verb.

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CalifJim  #256515  Wed, 16 Aug 06 06:15 PM
They set a riot off seems acceptable, even though our preference seems to be for They set off a riot.  (Note the article.)  Here it is the selectional criteria that may be interfering.  Substitute bomb for riot, and both They set off a bomb and They set a bomb off are fine, neither seeming to be necessarily much preferred over the other.  In many cases, however, there is a preferred word order even when two different possibilities are present.

It is almost the mark of a truly phrasal verb (transitive) that it is separable.
It is almost the mark of a truly prepositional verb that it is inseparable.

Yet, there are indeterminate, shadowy cases - cases where the verb seems more phrasal (and idiomatic) than prepositional and yet is inseparable and acts in some ways like a prepositional verb.

How did he come by that fortune?   How did he come by it?  *How did he come it by?

There are a number of particles (up, down, in, out, on, off, away, back) which should make us very suspicious that we are dealing with a separable phrasal verb, and a number of them (with, without, by, for, at, across, of, from, to, into) which almost certainly indicate a prepositional verb.  But there are some strange cases!

CJ
  
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KickingCat  #256618  Wed, 16 Aug 06 10:46 PM
would you like to write the whole sentence please so I can see what you mean?
  
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Maple  #256624  Wed, 16 Aug 06 11:04 PM

Thank you very much!Star [star]Star [star]

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Hi, KickingCat, Which sentence did you mean?

  
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Hela  #323304  Fri, 02 Feb 07 05:47 PM

Dear teachers,

I've just realized that just as a phrasal verb can be a combination of a verb + preposition OR adverb, a ...... verb (which is not a phrasal verb) can also be followed by a preposition OR adverb. So I shouldn't call it a "prepositional verb". What do we call it then?

eg 1:
a) Charles came into a fortune = phrasal verb (= idiomatic)
b) Charles came into the room = prepositional verb (and not a phrasal verb since the preposition is not part of the verb, it's part of the adverbial, right?)

eg 2:
a) I've been running up debts these days = phrasal verb
b) I run up to get my Dady's wallet = (verb + adverb) —> "run up" here is neither a phrasal verb nor a prepositional verb, so what is it?

Something else, it is said that we can put an object between a verb and an adverb, but not between a verb and a preposition; so would you please explain the following construction?

"I TALKED my mother INTO letting me borrow the car."

Thank you in advance.
Hela

  
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CalifJim  #323319  Fri, 02 Feb 07 06:37 PM
Your b) examples are just plain sentences with ordinary verbs.  If a verb is not a phrasal verb and not a prepositional verb, then it's "a verb", just like the thousands of them we see in sentences every day!

... we can ... not [put an object] between a verb and a preposition ...

This is false.  There are about 50 million counterexamples!

Put the letter on the table.
Take this letter to Peter.
I forced my clothes into the suitcase.
I helped your mother into the car.
I talked my mother into the blue dress.
I talked my mother into wearing the blue dress.
I talked my mother into letting me borrow the car.
They took me for a fool.
They took me for a ride.
We drove over the bridge.
We drove the car over the bridge.
We kept the children from danger.
We kept the children from playing in the street.

CJ
  
Hela  #323506  Sat, 03 Feb 07 08:21 AM

Good morning Jim,

So should I call the verbs in sentences (b) "ordinary / plain verbs" or "prepositional verbs" (with a literal sense) as opposed to "phrasal verbs" (= with an idiomatic sense) ?

If the prepositional verbs in your list are separable is it not because they have a literal meaning and not an idiomatic one? Are they not "unreal" phrasal verbs and this is why we can place objects between them and the prepositions?

Having said that is the verb "to talk someone into something" an "unreal phrasal verb" / prepositional verb (?) or is it a true phrasal verb? Is this a causative construction?

Can a prepositional verb be intransitive?

Would you please give me the meaning of :

a) "I talked my mother into the blue dress"?

b) I know she got home late, but her mom just WENT OFF ON her, and now she's grounded for life.

All the best,

Hela

  
CalifJim  #323876  Sun, 04 Feb 07 07:19 AM
I think maybe one of the other forum members would be better at this terminology.  For example, I am not familiar with "unreal phrasal verbs".  I would not call the b) sentences prepositional verbs.

I would call "to talk someone into something" a causative -- conceptually.  The grammatical term "causative construction" may have other implications that I'm not familiar with.

I talked my mother into (buying / taking / wearing) the blue dress, depending on context.

went off on her

Bombs "go off"; they explode.  The mother was very angry and made it clear by what she said to the daughter in an outburst.

Also,
gave her (the daughter) a piece of her (the mom's) mind
or, perhaps even more appropriately,
read her (the daughter) the riot act

CJ

  
Hela  #323898  Sun, 04 Feb 07 09:28 AM

Sorry Jim, the term "unreal phrasal verb" doesn't exist I've just made it up. What I wanted to do is to make the difference between verbs with an idiomatic meaning (= phrasal verbs) and verbs with a straightforward meaning (name ??)

I know though that in grammar we call "phrasal verbs" verbs with an adverbial particle and "prepositional verbs" verbs with a prepositional particle. But this is not my point.

eg: to look into a subject matter / to come into a fortune (phrasal verbs = idiomatic meaning => inseparable, but I know that "into" is a preposition)

     to look into the hole / to come into the room (prepositional verbs? = literal meaning = inseparable)

    to talk someone into something = phrasal verb (idiomatic) or prepositional verb (literal)?

Have a nice Sunday Smile [:)] 

  
CalifJim  #324789  Mon, 05 Feb 07 08:59 PM
I've just realized that just as a phrasal verb can be a combination of a verb + preposition OR adverb, a ...... verb (which is not a phrasal verb) can also be followed by a preposition OR adverb. So I shouldn't call it a "prepositional verb". What do we call it then?

A phrasal verb is a verb and an adverb (also called a particle).  If it is composed of a verb and a preposition (followed by the object of the preposition), then it is not a phrasal verb.
Among the verbs which are not phrasal verbs are the majority of verbs - ordinary verbs. 
Some phrasal verbs and some non-phrasal verbs have the property that they are virtually always followed by the same preposition (followed by an object of that preposition).  This kind of verb is called a prepositional verb.  Phrasal prepositional verbs:  come up with, look down on  Non-phrasal prepositional verbs:  rely on, vouch for

Just because a phrasal or non-phrasal verb is used with a preposition doesn't mean it's a prepositional verb.  It's just an ordinary verb (not a prepositional verb) if several different prepositions are possible with the same verb.  (go into the house, go around the house, go toward the house)

Phrasal verbs can be transitive or intransitive.  (They fell out.  We threw out the trash.)
Prepositional verbs can be transitive or intransitive.  (I rely on you.  I congratulate you on your success.)
And, of course, all other ordinary verbs can be transitive or intransitive.  (I slept.  We found the book.)

Phrasal verbs can be idiomatic, and they usually are.  (bring up children)
But phrasal verbs can be literal as well.  (bring in the dog)

Prepositional verbs can be idiomatic.  (come across an unusual flower)
But they are more often literal.  (cure the child of measles, approve of that behavior)

The line between literal and idiomatic is rather blurry.

eg 1:
a) Charles came into a fortune = phrasal verb (= idiomatic) I'd say prepositional, intransitive, idiomatic.
b) Charles came into the room = prepositional verb (and not a phrasal verb since the preposition is not part of the verb, it's part of the adverbial, right?)  I'd say ordinary, intransitive, literal:  came into the room, came out of the room, came near the room, ...

eg 2:
a) I've been running up debts these days = phrasal verb   Yes.  Phrasal, transitive, idiomatic
b) I run up to get my Dady's wallet = (verb + adverb) —> "run up" here is neither a phrasal verb nor a prepositional verb, so what is it?    Interpretation 1:  Ordinary verb with an adverb of direction, intransitive, literal.  Interpretation 2:  Phrasal with "goal" particle instead of the usual "neutral" particle, intransitive, literal.

<>to look into a subject matter  Prepositional, intransitive, idiomatic.
to come into a fortune (phrasal verbs = idiomatic meaning => inseparable, but I know that "into" is a preposition)  Prepositional, intransitive, idiomatic.

to look into the hole  Ordinary, intransitive, literal.  look into the hole, look around the hole, look through the hole, look across the hole

to come into the room (prepositional verbs? = literal meaning = inseparable) Ordinary, intransitive, literal.  come into ..., come out of ..., come toward ..., ...
to talk someone into something = phrasal verb (idiomatic) or prepositional verb (literal)? Prepositional, transitive, borderline idiomatic/literal.  (Literally talking, but "talk into" as "persuade".)

CJ

(By the way, the transitive phrasal verbs, as defined and described above, are always "separable".  And they are the only ones that are separable.)
  
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