Anonymous  +  534418 Sun, 29 Jun 08 11:32 PM Do men use standard forms less that women do? It has been suggested that men prefer vernacular forms because "they carry macho connotations of masculinity an toughness" (Holmes 2001). It has also been suggested that vernacular forms "have 'covert prestige' by contrast with the overt prestige of the standard forms" (Holmes 2001). An Introduction to Sociolinguistics: Second Edition. By Janet Holmes. Anonymous

	Avangi  +  534441 Mon, 30 Jun 08 03:26 AM This seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy, or whatever it's called.  If it's true that women have had no role in the formulation of the vernacular, why should they use "tough masculine" forms?  Perhaps they haven't been in the work place long enough to cast their influence on it's language.   - A. Avangi Joined on Mon, Nov 19 2007 Veteran Member 8,207 ". . . le plaisir delicieux et toujours nouveau d'une occupation inutile." - Henri de Regnier

	Avangi  +  534683 Mon, 30 Jun 08 04:09 PM Anonymous “It has been suggested that men prefer vernacular forms because "they carry macho connotations of masculinity an toughness" It has also been suggested that vernacular forms "have 'covert prestige' by contrast with the overt prestige of the standard forms" ” These are both patently obvious.  What is not clear is whether or not Holmes claims that all vernacular forms carry macho connotations of masculinity and toughness, to the extent that vernacular forms appropriate for more feminine expression are not available to women.  Isn't it possible that the proportion by which men (over women) favor the vernacular, is very similar to the proportion by which masculine vernacular forms are available over feminine vernacular forms?  And if this is possible, then wouldn't it be worthwhile to study how it came to be that there isn't more feminine influence on the vernacular? Anonymous “I'm not sure that anyone has suggested that women have not played a part in formulating vernacular forms. The point is that men prefer certain vernacular forms over certain standard forms.” If that's the only point you're making, then I would concur. Respectfully,  - A. Avangi