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just the truth
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Wed, 23 Mar 05 04:47 PM
Perhaps, Mr P, you're thinking of the wrong pot for the circumstances. Are you familiar with the turn of phrase; is it NaE only?
"They don't have a pot to piss in."
Joined on
Mon, Dec 27 2004
Regular Member
849
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paco2004
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Wed, 23 Mar 05 05:12 PM
Hello JTT
How are you tonight? By the way I missed your posting. I'm sorry.
| Here's one of those times that I was talking about, Paco. Although I can't nor should I deem how a culture is supposed to feel in any given circumstances, for English, I think is "overplayed". I'd suggested that the scale of things only warrants an . is a word that is generally used for more serious, more grevious omissions. |
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I understand what you are saying. But you know, I can learn a second language but I cannot learn a second emotion. To me the feeling of hazukasii is nothing but hazukashii, and my J-E dictionaries say it is 'ashamed'....
It is so difficult to transfer the concept of this kind into another langage. An American (or Canadian) desk is nothing but a desk to me and it is easy to grasp the meaning of English 'desk'. But the exact meaning of the words such as 'shame' is not easy to grasp. It would cost a life, I suppose. Anyway thank you a lot for the advice.
paco
Joined on
Wed, Nov 17 2004
Senior Member
4,095
In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.
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MrPedantic
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Wed, 23 Mar 05 11:38 PM
Joined on
Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member
12,592
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
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MrPedantic
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Wed, 23 Mar 05 11:43 PM
Where does embarrassment end and shame begin, I wonder. It's all quite personal.
Would 'mortified' serve your purpose, Paco?
MrP
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just the truth
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Thu, 24 Mar 05 03:52 PM
I understand what you are saying. But you know, I can learn a second language but I cannot learn a second emotion. To me the feeling of hazukasii is nothing but hazukashii, and my J-E dictionaries say it is 'ashamed'....
Hi Paco,
I too understand the difficulties you face. And these words, as Mr P mentioned, are obviously not only culturally ordained but personally ordained.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't hazukashii able to extend all the way from 'shy to ashamed'. I think this highlights the problem of direct translation. Of course, it's not my place to tell you how to learn the language, I'm not your teacher, but I have long warned my students of the dangers of using J-E dictionaries.
I've gradually weaned my adult students from their J-E dictionaries and I might recommend that someone of your prodigious talents would benefit even more from using an English only dictionary.
For those thorny times when you don't know what nuance to choose, so you don't even know where to look in a dictionary, you should try the Longman Language Activator. Are you familiar with it? It lists all the various nuances that these words can have and they are all centered around the simplist key word.
Paco:
It is so difficult to transfer the concept of this kind into another langage. An American (or Canadian) desk is nothing but a desk to me and it is easy to grasp the meaning of English 'desk'. But the exact meaning of the words such as 'shame' is not easy to grasp. It would cost a life, I suppose. Anyway thank you a lot for the advice.
JTT: I know what you mean and it is here that the Activator excels. It's called the Activator because it can help you focus in on that special word for a special situation.
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paco2004
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Fri, 25 Mar 05 04:58 AM
Hello JTT
Thank you for the kind reply. You look to have learned Japanese a lot. Actually, however, 'shy' is rather 'hazukashi-garu' in our language. When a Japanese girl has a first date with you, the girl would hazukashigaru (be shy). We use 'hazukashii' to express our feeling that we have when we found we made a foolish mistake and we incline to reproach ourselves for that. The word 'hazi' itself is a word very difficult to explain. But I understand 'hazi' is a feeling one might have when they become conscious that they are unduly dishonored by other people or a feeling that one might have when they become conscious that they had made some serious mistake enough to know they themselves are guilty. So 'hazukashigaru', 'hazukashii' and 'hazi' are different to considerable extents in the sense, though we use the same Chinese character in expressing them.
Speaking about the word choice by using J-E dictionaries, I admit it would not be a good way for advanced learners. But as you see, I'm still a beginner of English learning, I sometimes need help of J-E dictionaries to find an appropriate English word for what I want to say. Of course when I use an English word new to me, I usually check its sense by E-E dictionaries. As for 'ashamed', Webster defines 'embarrassed by feelings of guilt, foolishness, or disgrace as the first definition and OED 'abashed by a consciousness of guilt or error. So I thought 'ashamed' was not so far from what I wanted to say. But I might be wrong in the word choice.
As to your recommendation of 'Longman Activator', I would take a look at it when I find it in a book shop. I'm now considering whether I should buy a Collins corpus dictionary.
Anyway thank you for your kindness and enjoy Friday afternoon!
paco
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MrPedantic
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Fri, 25 Mar 05 11:52 AM
It's an interesting conundrum. Let's take it to extremes:
A speaks X, in X-land. In X-land, it is a matter of personal disgrace to be detected in a mistake.
B speaks Y, in Y-land. In Y-land, it is a matter of hearty communal humour, to be detected in a mistake.
A has just started working in Y-land. He finds a tiny mistake in his budget spreadsheet, which he must report to B. In his X-Y dictionary, he looks up the X-word that means 'personal disgrace'. He finds Y-wordº.
Y-wordº however is not applicable to mistakes in spreadsheets, because making a mistake in Y-land is a cause for hilarity. It is only applicable to being caught with your wife's sister, forging a cheque, etc. (In which case, you're required to shoot yourself.)
We know what happens when A duly reports his mistake to B. B bursts into laughter, as does the rest of the office, and explains that he shouldn't use Y-wordº; he should use Y-word¹ instead.
A is doubly mortified. He has now made two tiny mistakes. Moreover, he looks up Y-word¹ in his Y-X dictionary, and finds X-word¹, which is the X-word for 'hilarity'.
In X-land, of course, being caught with your wife's sister, forging a cheque, etc is a cause for hilarity.
Poor A. His personal distress is genuine. Yet he must express that distress with a word that, to him, means 'hilarity', and relates to a trivial happening. And yet in Y-land, it is the suitable word for the occasion.
So which word should A use, to express his feelings to people in Y-land?
And what happens when B, on his first trip to X-land, is caught with somebody else's wife?
MrP
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paco2004
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Fri, 25 Mar 05 01:05 PM
Hello Mr P
![Tongue Tied [:S]](/emoticons/emotion-7.gif)
It'll take a day for me to get what you are saying.
Please wait a small (This is a Gahna English I was taught from my friend. ^_^)
paco
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MrPedantic
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Sat, 26 Mar 05 01:23 AM
Re-reading it several hours later, Paco, I share your :s
I must change my medication.
MrP
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