Anonymous  +  162592 Fri, 25 Nov 05 02:44 PM Does this sentence have a passive form? "The trolls lived under the bridge." Thanks. Anonymous

	pieanne  +  162637 Fri, 25 Nov 05 04:57 PM I don't think it has, because "under the bridge" is not a direct object complement. In a passive sentence, the active voice direct object complement becomes the subject.   pieanne Joined on Thu, Jan 20 2005 South of France ...But I'm Belgian! Veteran Member 7,517 I'm glad to help, but I'm not a native! And please excuse my typos... Passive Sentences, Direct Objects

	MrPedantic  +  162803 Sat, 26 Nov 05 02:14 AM I find myself saying "The bridge was lived under by trolls." But it may infringe some grammatical rule. MrP MrPedantic Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004 Veteran Member 12,592 ...opella forensis / adducit febris...

	paco2004  +  162807 Sat, 26 Nov 05 02:58 AM Syntactically, English allows a prepositional object in active voice to become the subject in passive voice. [1] PieAnne slept in this bed yesterday. [2] This bed was slept in by PieAnne yesterday. [3] Paco slept in this bed yesterday. [4] This bed was slept in by Paco yesterday. The sentence #2 is correct syntactically as well as semantically. The sentence #4 may be syntactically correct but semantically wrong. Why #2 is correct but #4 not? It is because the sleepers are different. If such a pretty woman like PieAnne sleep in a bed, the value of the bed greatly changes in its value to compare with that before PieAnne's sleeping. Maybe the value would rise hundred folds, maybe to the price as high as to $50,000 if the bed is put at auction. But if the sleeper is an ordinary man like Paco, any change wouldn’t happen in the value of the bed. This is the reason why #2 is semantically correct but # 4 not paco paco2004 Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004 Senior Member 4,095 In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.

	CalifJim  +  162809 Sat, 26 Nov 05 03:26 AM I wonder if this is a case of 'passivizing' while at the same time not being a 'true passive'.  There are quite a number of cases where the object of a preposition can become a subject. Do these passivizations merit a different name than 'passive'?  Is there some terminology to handle this?  'Oblique passive'?  Something like that? That bed was slept in by George Washington. This chair has been sat in once too often.  (Now we'll have to fix it.) John is usually relied on to take care of that type of problem. CJ PS.  Sorry.  Didn't see you there, Paco.  We both found the typical "slept in by" example, I see.  CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,389 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Prepositions

	MrPedantic  +  162962 Sat, 26 Nov 05 12:47 PM Hmm. Does that mean we have a subject complement, rather than a true passive? 1. The bridge was lived under by trolls. MrP MrPedantic

	paco2004  +  162967 Sat, 26 Nov 05 12:58 PM  MrPedantic wrote: Does that mean we have a subject complement, rather than a true passive? 1. The bridge was lived under by trolls. I too am inclined to think so. paco paco2004

	pieanne  +  163036 Sat, 26 Nov 05 03:54 PM Just a question: "would anybody say that?" (supposing trolls do exist in real life)   pieanne

	MrPedantic  +  163042 Sat, 26 Nov 05 04:02 PM "Euuuuwch. Have you looked under that rickety bridge lately? It's absolutely disgusting down there." "Oh, I know. I'm afraid it was lived under by a troll for a couple of years." "A troll? [somewhat nervously] But it's gone now, right?" "Oh yes, it went a long time ago. I don't know the exact story; but there was some unpleasantness with a family of billy-goats, I believe. And since then, we haven't seen hide or hair of him..."       MrPedantic