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Latest post Wed, Apr 2 2008 1:40 PM by Grammar Geek. 6 replies.
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Anonymous  +  495028 Mon, 31 Mar 08 07:23 PM
"Their disdain rarely failed to evoke in him a delayed sense of self-irony not at all fatal in nature."

 First of all, is that sentence at all grammatically correct? Did I miss any hyphens? Punctuation?

What about the style, does it sound too literary or archaic? How would you paraphrase the sentence to convey the same meaning more stylistically? I tried to achieve a type of a surreal mood to play down the significance of the 'disdain' and imply that the subject has capacity for self-irony, and, at the same time, get a hint of indignation to speak in the background.

It's embarrassing, I feel like a beggar asking for a coin to spare. None the less, I feel like some kind of a wake-up call is a necessary step in my learning process. So, please, oh kindly people...help out a fellow linguist and tell me how badly I messed up here!

 

Yours truly,

Not a native speaker

Grammar Geek  +  495040 Mon, 31 Mar 08 08:00 PM

It's extremely literay, and sounds like something from the Jane Austen-era of writing. I'm not quite sure what "a sense of self-irony" is, but basically:

He felt their disdain for him, and later on, it usually gave him a sense of self-irony, but it wasn't a truly terrible feeling.

 

 

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Anonymous, 1 yr 233 days ago

grammatically, it looks OK.

 

It sounds too long. Yes, it sounds too long and too archaic. And what is self-irony?

 

 

Cool Breeze  +  495307 Tue, 01 Apr 08 01:50 PM
 I find your sentence very satisfactory. It may be Jane Austenish but there is no law against such language even today.Smile Why should everybody speak and write in exactly the same way in English? People don't do that in many other languages. I see no mistakes in punctuation or hyphens but I know one native forum member who would consider the sentence incorrect because it contains a relative clause from which the relative pronoun has been omitted even though it is the subject of the clause: Their disdain rarely failed to evoke in him a delayed sense of self-irony [which/that was] not at all fatal in nature.

CB 

Joined on Fri, Apr 7 2006
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"I hope you'll all live to be 150 years old - and the last voice you hear is mine!" Frank Sinatra on stage in Oslo, Norway, 28 September 1991
Forbes, 1 yr 233 days ago

Anonymous
“"Their disdain rarely failed to evoke in him a delayed sense of self-irony not at all fatal in nature." ”

 Anyone who can write like that does not need help.Smile

Anonymous, 1 yr 232 days ago

Thanks for all the input. Everyone needs a little help sometimes... after all, no man is an island :)

I agree with Cool Breese; everyone has their own style. Besides, people still read classics these days and, to my knowledge, there has been no great effort to 'translate' every one of them into modern English...so why should everyone write like Stephen King?

When I write, I have no specific audience in mind in terms of ethnicity. I am a Finn living in Thailand, and I interact with people of all nationalities, each of which have their own ways of speaking 'English'. I would feel a little hypocritical even trying to find some universally 'correct' way of writing. Anyways, to me this is just a hobby, a time consuming and deranging one, perhaps, but a hobby nonetheless, which, on the other hand, is a pitiful excuse, but an excuse nonetheless.

 As for the question: what is self-irony?

Good point. I guess that's what I was trying to define in the text around that sentence. I can't express it clearly yet, though... For me, writing is a painfully subconscious process. All I can do is listen and write; the idea usually develops on the go. On the other hand, to me this seems a somewhat universal phenomenon that underlines what Freud said about the subconscious..

Anyway, I looked into it and self-irony does yield some hits on Google, in both English and Finnish. I found this mention of self-irony from an obscure website:

"Around the millennial shift Self-irony has permeated youth culture. Since identities have become more and more fragmented, young people often distance themselves from self. With global media and cross-culture relations self-irony becomes the only fixed position. However, this has been criticised from modernist theorists, claiming that tradition and rationality are not beeing disintegrated, but has only shifted on the surface. ... "

 It all seems to fit together, somehow. I can't still say how exactly...and right now I'm too exasperated by some unwriterly mood to keep going. I'll just let this puzzle sleep for a while...

Again, thanks for the input!

Grammar Geek  +  495782 Wed, 02 Apr 08 01:40 PM

Look, for what it's worth, at no point did I say anything about whether it was good style or bad style. You asked whether it sounds archaic or literary. I answered that it sounds like Jane Austen, who happens to be one of my favorite writers. Of course there's no universally correct writing style. I didn't say "I wouldn't write this way" or "No one will understand you if you do."

 If there is a flaw in your sentence, it is not in the style, but in the lack of understand your reader will have in understanding self-irony. (DId that Web site make much sense to you? Sheesh. Social scientists really know how to obfuscate.)

P.S.  Please send me some spicy peanut sauce when you have a moment.

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