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English is a crazy language

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Woodward  #4503  Sat, 16 Aug 03 12:04 AM
A mere flesh wound...come on now...give us your best shot...
  
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kitkattail  #4512  Sat, 16 Aug 03 02:58 AM
I'm so glad you understand.Wink [;)] *goes off singing the Lumberjack song*
  
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Guest  #20026  Fri, 23 Jan 04 01:38 AM
Well im from russia, ive been here for 7 years and i still dont know all of english. This all sums up to one thing, English is a crazy language.
  
EnglishFanatic  #21203  Tue, 03 Feb 04 04:14 PM
Is English a crazy language or not I think It doesn't matter. We must know it well.
  
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nestman  #22162  Wed, 11 Feb 04 04:13 PM
english is my second language in our country.

everyday at the office we communicate with others in English on email. it seems that we can understand each other very well because... we are all using very simple english with limited vocabulary! When i have to search information from reference books I still can manage.

However, I find it difficult to understand what the english native speakers say, e.g. our customers, our staffs in oversea factories...etc.. Besides everytime when I read english magazines, newspaper or fiction I cannot understand properly. Is it because there are too many dialect which I haven't heard before? Is it because different regions using different vocabulary, words, grammers and pronunciation (e.g. it seems that people from US, UK, Australia are speaking in differnt ways...)?

Can anybody share with me how to improve my english?
  
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deepa  #22165  Wed, 11 Feb 04 04:45 PM
I have a different opinion! I say English is very simple language!! English grammar is fairly simple. Nouns in many other languages have grammatical gender and accordingly some verbs and adjectives undergo changes. eg. most of the Indian languages. This complexity is absent in English.Thus, the adjective "big" is common to all nouns such as man, woman, child, book, stone, dog, cat, river, idea, plan, and so on. Moreover, this adjective applies to both singular and plural nouns. English nouns and position words are written separately, without any change in nouns. For example, note these words: in India, from India, to India. All words are separate and remain unchanged. Obviously, this is a great advantage for searching words in dictionaries. In many other languages, the noun takes an oblique form to which is attached the positional word after the noun. The composite word becomes long and difficult for dictionary purposes.
Counting of large numbers is cyclic and simple in English. For example, twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three, etc forms a series. Next series is thirty-one, thirty-two, thirty-three etc. In many other languages all numbers, from one to hundred are unrelated and have to be memorized. I can count only in English, not even in Hindi or my mother tongue!
Another feature of English is its sense of equality. Pronouns you, he, she are applicable to all persons irrespective of their age and status. In many other languages, these pronouns take different forms, sometimes causing great inconvenience.
  
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Pemmican  #23633  Thu, 26 Feb 04 02:54 AM
Deepa, I totally agree with you!

As examples always enlighten a lot, I'll give you some impressions of my mother tongue German:
I have to say that English in many cases is simpler than my native language. You mentioned e.g. the gender of a noun which is usually expressed by the article. In English, there are no genders, everything is "the", while in German you have three genders: der (masculine), die (feminine), das (neuter). With human beings, the grammatical gender usually agrees in the natural gender as 'the man' is 'der Mann', the woman is die Frau and the child, when you don't know whether it is a boy or a girl is das Kind. But - already here you have exceptions as e.g. the word for "girl" is neuter: das Mädchen even if it's obvious that a girl is female!

According to the gender, also the adjectives have to be inflected:
a good man is in German ein guter Mann
a good woman is eine gute Frau
and a good child is ein gutes Kind.

For all the "simple" nouns you have to learn their genders by heart as there is no rule to cling to when you need to know the noun's gender. If you have a compound word, i.e. a noun that consists of two or more own nouns, e.g. buttercup or sunshine, the word takes over the gender of the last noun -> sun is Sonne in German, feminine: die Sonne, Schein is masculine: der Schein, so sunshine is masculine, too: der Sonnenschein.


Speaking of compound words, German has an incredible ability to form new words out of already existing words. Unlike English, that takes over Latin terms to get new words, e.g. accept, surprise, German forms them this way: accept = annehmen from nehmen =take and an = on => take on; surprise = überraschen from über = over and rasch =quick => overquick, etc.
Compound words can be put together out of many single words - they are written as one word then, e.g. "Dampfschiffahrtskapitänsuniformfarbe" which means "colour of the uniform of a captain of a steamboat". Farbe = colour here is the last word and has the feminine gender, so the whole compound term is feminine: "Die Dampfschiffahrtskapitänsuniformfarbe".

English, with some very few old exceptions, usually adds an -s to the noun and you have its plural form: dog-dogs, car-cars, tree-trees.
German nouns form their plural in different ways:
adding -(e)n: Frau-Frauen (woman)
adding -s: Auto-Autos (car)
adding -e: Brot-Brote (bread)
adding nothing: Teller-Teller (plate)
umlauting the stem vowel: Vater-Väter (father)
umlauting the stem vowel and adding -er: Haus-Häuser (house)
umlauting the stem vowel and adding -e: Sohn-Söhne (son)
...

Also the cases in German still have their own forms, that means instead of forming a case by taking a preposition and keeping the noun in its actual form, German nouns add endings and in addition, the article changes as well:

------------------------Singular-------Plural
Nominative case --- das Haus-------die Häuser------------the house------the houses
Genitive case--------des Hauses----der Häuser------------of the house---of the houses
Dative case----------dem Haus(e)--den Häusern-----------to the house---to the houses
Accusative case-----das Haus-------die Häuser-------------the house------the houses

(this is only one paradigm though - other nouns follow a different pattern)


Verbs in German still keep inflecting endings for all the persons, also in past tense, sometimes an umlaut occurs in 2nd and 3rd person singular, eg: tragen (to carry)

Present--------------Past
ich trage-------------ich trug-----------I carry------------I carried
du trägst-------------du trugst---------you carry---------you carried
er trägt--------------er trug------------he carries---------he carried
wir tragen-----------wir trugen--------we carry----------we carried
ihr tragt-------------ihr trugt-----------you carry---------you carried
sie tragen-----------sie trugen---------they carry--------they carried

As you can see here, there are also two different forms of "you": du and ihr. You have to differenciate between whom you're adressing: If it's only one person, you use 'du', if it's 2 or more people you use 'ihr' - and additionally: If you want to address one or more person who you don't know very well, you have to use the polite form "Sie" - so all in all there are 3 pronouns for English "you".
Of course, also these pronouns have different forms when they are used in the four cases.

Ok, I'll leave it with this now - I don't wanna type a whole Grammar here *hehe*
I hope you can now see that in many parts, Grammar English is a lot easier than in other languages. BUT on the other hand I have to say that there are also things that are easier in German - tenses for example. German e.g. doesn't have progressive tenses and it's also not necessary to use future tense when referring to future happenings, usually everyone uses the present tense instead...

But *blahblah* - I hope this info might have helped you a bit. Comparing languges to each other often opens doors, you haven't seen before and it's usually very helpful to have a closer look also at Grammar of your native language when learning a foreign language.Wink [;)]
  
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Wâ mag ich mich nu vinden? wâ mac ich mich nu suochen, wâ? nu bin ich hie und bin ouch dâ und enbin doch weder dâ noch hie. wer wart ouch sus verirret ie?wer wart ie sus...
chris  #23643  Thu, 26 Feb 04 08:16 AM
I've never fully appreciated the noun gender rules. Is it a case of when you are young you have to study the gender of each noun (das haus = neutral noun) or are there patterns that you follow?


Question Pemmican!

Is there a rule in German when it comes to a double 's' a different symbol is used? I've been told that this 'symbol' is optional and up to the user? (The symbol looks something like an overstretched letter B!)

  
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Pemmican  #23715  Thu, 26 Feb 04 10:12 PM
>>I've never fully appreciated the noun gender rules. Is it a case of when you are young you have to study the gender of each noun (das haus = neutral noun) or are there patterns that you follow?


No, unfortunately there are no rules - at least not for the "simple" words.
There are some memory hooks for words ending in special suffixes (which also have exceptions though) eg.
- words ending in -ung, -ion, - are usually feminine
die Achtung (caution), die Warnung (warning), die Nation (nation), die Konstruktion (construction)
- words ending in -chen, -nis are usually neuter
das Brötchen (bread roll), das Ereignis (happening)/ exception: die Finsternis (darkness)
etc.
but you can never take them for granted! You have to learn most of the nouns' genders by heart... sorry.




>>Question Pemmican!
>Is there a rule in German when it comes to a double 's' a different symbol is used? I've been told that this 'symbol' is optional and up to the user? (The symbol looks something like an overstretched letter B!)


Are you learning German?! Smile [:)]

Yes, here there are rules - those depend on what spelling you're learning or have learned:

If you're going to follow the New spelling rules from 1996, then it is quite easy to explain:
Is this Sleep [S]-sound following a long pronounced vowel or a diphthong, then you write it as "ß", in all the other cases you use "ss":

-der Fuß (foot), grüßen (to greet), die Straße (street), groß (big, tall, large), der Spaß (fun)...
-der Kuss (kiss), das Küsschen (little kiss), müssen (to have to), ich muss (I must), ich habe gemusst (I've had to), das Wasser (water)...


If you're going to follow the old spelling rules (mainly from 1901), then it's a bit more complex:
A word can only end in -s or -ß, not in -ss.
Is the Sleep [S]-sound within the word following a long pronounced vowel or a diphthong, then you write "ß", is it followed by a short pronounced vowel, then you spell it "ss", except the s-sound is the last sound of the word, the last sound of the stem part of the word or is (mainly in inflections) immediately followed by a t:

-Fuß, grüßen, Straße, groß, Spaß...
-Kuß, Küßchen, müssen, ich muß, ich habe gemußt, Wasser...


In Switzerland, however, you actually always spell it "ss". "ß" hardly occurs.

Even if you're using the new spelling, you should keep the old rules in mind, too. You don't have to use them but most of the Germans dislike the new spelling rules as they are very confusing and go on writing with old spelling rules. Even lots of newspapers, after discovering their readers don't want to accept the new rules, changed back to old spelling.

Soon after the New rules (which btw don't just affect "ß" and "ss", but also a lot of other grammatical and spelling stuff) came out, lots of people were disappointed by the chaos the linguists produced by their changings and now just avoid the new spelling.


"ß" is called either "sharp s", because it is always pronounced as the strong Sleep [S]-sound, never like Boy [Z], or also (this one is more popular) "Eszet" - which occupy the origin of the actual letter "ß": It has been formed by putting together the ancient German handwriting "s" and "z".

Here you can have a look at the old handwriting:


The ancient "long s" (2nd letter in 3rd line) and the ancient "z" (2nd letter in 4th line) form the letter "ß" (4th letter in 3rd line).


Hope I could help you out.
Greetings from Germany
Pemmican