evening (without preposition) / to start to doing

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Hoa Thai

#447596 Wed, 28 Nov 07 11:35 PM

MrPedantic wrote:
Out of interest, would anyone object to the articleless "Evening" in the original example if it were a case of personification?

MrP

WOW! That's beautiful!

Thanks,
Hoa Thai

EDIT NOTE: "Evening ... started.... The shade climbed up ..."

Hoa Thai

Joined on Mon, Oct 15 2007

Vietnam

Contributing Member (1,100)

Best Regards - Hoa Thai

Prepositions

Cool Breeze

#447725 Thu, 29 Nov 07 08:28 AM

MrPedantic wrote:
Out of interest, would anyone object to the articleless "Evening" in the original example if it were a case of personification?

Hello, MrP

I wouldn't! A great explanation! Incidentally, I don't object to the articleless "evening" anyway; I'm just wondering why? I'm trying to figure out an explanation for something that in my opinion is usually not said. Smile [:)]

And I am certainly not trying to convince anyone that I have the absolute truth about the matter.

Cheers
CB

Cool Breeze

Joined on Fri, Apr 7 2006

Helsinki, Finland

Senior Member (2,697)

The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.- Mark Twain

Prepositions

Cool Breeze

#447731 Thu, 29 Nov 07 08:52 AM

CalifJim wrote:
since laughter is an uncountable noun, unlike evening.
Unlike evening? Wow! In that sentence I understand evening as uncountable! (evening-ness?) Aren't all singular nouns in English uncountable when used without articles?

I didn't make my point clearly enough. Sad [:(]

I said evening is countable, I didn't say it is countable in Steinbeck's sentence. Evening is listed as countable in dictionaries, unlike laughter. Therefore it is possible to say: I spent two evenings with her, but we can't normally say: I heard two laughters from the street. Steinbeck uses evening as uncountable in his sentence. I find that a little odd and it makes me ask: why? I am just trying to figure out an answer for myself, I'm not trying to convince all members of these forums that I have the ultimate truth on the matter.

I mentioned representative in a previous post. If Portugal sends only one representative to a beauty contest, we normally say:

The representative of Portugal won the beauty contest.

If I treat representative as uncountable, I get:

Representative of Portugal won the beauty contest.

I find that sentence a little odd, if not downright incorrect. Similarly, since a hot day has only one evening - it is possible to say "one evening" because "evening" is countable - I would prefer to say:

The evening of a hot day...

I don't object to Steinbeck's choice, I'm just trying to squeeze it into the right grammatical pigeon hole in my brain. Anyway, Jim, I think you said earlier that you also considered the sentence perhaps a little odd or something, I don't remember your exact words right now. We are actually in complete agreement! Smile [:)]

And even if we weren't, what would it matter? My signature is: Live and let live. In this case it should be understood: Use your English and let others use theirs. I'm all for linguistic freedom.

CB

Cool Breeze

Articles, Countable nouns, Nouns, Prepositions, Singular nouns, Uncountable nouns

Hoa Thai

#447769 Thu, 29 Nov 07 11:05 AM

Hi Cool Breeze and everyone,

First, I would like to disclaim my ability to read Mr. Steinback’s mind.

Second, beauty is in the eye of the beholder; thus, whatever I share below is just a pure figment of my imagination.

When I first read the passage, the personification usage was quite clear. It was so clear that my brain fixated only on the author's seemingly grammatical mishap. Then, when I read the next sentence in the same passage, I noticed his use of the definitive article the for shadow, which is an uncountable noun – Mr. Steinbeck must have been fully aware of the grammatical contrast between the two sibling sentences.

Nevertheless, my brain did not register anything besides focusing on the contrast until I saw the last word from MrPedantic’s comment, ‘personification’. Suddenly, it made sense to me if I replaced Evening of a hot day with John of a one-person village. Why does that matter?

To me, ‘The evening of a hot day’ sends a message that a hot day restricts the meaning of evening. Again, it must be out of my own imagination, such restriction - from personification point of view - diminishes the role of evening, the passage’s main actor that ‘started the wind and cast the moving shadow up the hill’. If The is removed, the seemingly grammatical error would tarnish the beauty of his painting. To solve the dilemma is to name evening Evening!

Mr. Steinback turned ‘a picture worth a thousand words’ on its head; with lesser than 50 words in three sentences he painted a very dynamic picture for us to behold.

Best Regards,
Hoa Thai

Hoa Thai

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CalifJim

#448053 Fri, 30 Nov 07 04:59 AM

I said evening is countable, I didn't say it is countable in Steinbeck's sentence.

OK. I didn't get that.

Similarly, since a hot day has only one evening - it is possible to say "one evening" because "evening" is countable

Not sure why you added this. Yes, it is possible to say one evening or an evening when evening is countable, but if we recognize that in the subject sentence evening is non-countable, and the problem is the, not a or one, I don't see where the logic is going.

the is possible with both countable and non-countable nouns. Wouldn't this strange sentence be more like

Humidity of a hot day ...,

which is equally difficult to explain, isn't it? Or is it? Do you sense that the is required as much here as with evening taken as a non-countable?

Like you, I'm not in the mode of argumentation so much as in the mode of truth-finding. The conundrum I have concerns the circumstances under which a singular abstract non-countable noun followed by an of phrase can go without an article -- if there are any -- other than that the author "felt it that way". (I don't recall reading anything about this in any grammar books. Maybe I was asleep at the time I read that chapter!)

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,567)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Articles, Countable nouns, Grammar, Nouns, Prepositions

Cool Breeze

#448134 Fri, 30 Nov 07 09:04 AM

CalifJim wrote:
Not sure why you added this. Yes, it is possible to say one evening or an evening when evening is countable, but if we recognize that in the subject sentence evening is non-countable, and the problem is the, not a or one, I don't see where the logic is going.

the is possible with both countable and non-countable nouns. Wouldn't this strange sentence be more like

Humidity of a hot day ...,

which is equally difficult to explain, isn't it? Or is it? Do you sense that the is required as much here as with evening taken as a non-countable?

Mea culpa. I'm sorry, yes, I didn't express myself very clearly. The logic has nothing to do with using a or an even though the use or omission of the depends on evening or laughter being countable or uncountable. Smile [:)]

As I said before, it is possible to hear just part of the laughter or some laughter in your example sentence because laughter is uncountable. That fact, to me anyway, seems to justify the omission of the article and your sentence sounds very natural and good to me.

Evening of a hot day sounds a little odd to my ear because evening is normally countable. I know this may not make any sense to other people and I don't think I have ever seen this in any grammar books and I certainly don't want to impose my reasoning and logic - or lack of it Smile [:)]

- on outsiders. It's just the way I feel about the whole thing and as long as I have got Steinbeck's phrase in the right pigeon hole in the language compartment of my brain, I am satisfied.

Let's have one Beer [B]