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Grammar Geek
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514505
Fri, 16 May 08 06:01 PM
You'll get regional variation.
Try saying be... as in bet but really extend the E and then add the R and you'll end up saying "bare/bear" with rhymes with hair.
Tray saying bee (like the insect) and add then R, and you'll say "beer."
Joined on
Tue, Jan 10 2006
Veteran Member
19,655
Barbara, who answers in American English. My housekeeping skills attest to the truth of the second law of thermodynamics: Left to themselves, things get more and more random!
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Pter
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514509
Fri, 16 May 08 06:13 PM
In British English, what you said are two different vowels and are in fact denoted differently in IPA. The extended ones are diphthongs. bet / bet / bear / be r /
bee / bi: / beer / bi r / (The non-rhotic "r" cannot be shown accurately.) I wonder my understanding of IPA for British English may be totally inapplicable to American English.
Joined on
Wed, Nov 28 2007
Regular Member
553
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Kooyeen
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514525
Fri, 16 May 08 06:58 PM
Hi, the American Pronunciation you found is ok, and Merriam-Webster is the best (in my opinion) to check American pronunciations. The thing is you have to learn how to read phonetic transcriptions in the dictionaries you use, because often every dictionary uses its own conventions. Also, dictionaries don't give perfect and accurate phonetic transcriptions, but they are more like "phonemic transcriptions", if that's the term and I'm not mistaken. I'll give you some examples: RED - IPA from Longman: /r ed/ - Wrong! To be accurate, it should be more like /ɹɛd/ or /ɻɛd/. Then why isn't it written that way? Because 100% accurate transcriptions are not necessary (but it would be nice if they were given), unless you want to know all the subtle differences between dialectal pronunciations. All dictionaries use /r/ to mean /ɹ/, even though /r/ is another kind of R (found in Italian, Scottish, etc.)... but it's not a problem, because it's obvious you have to say /ɹ/ instead, since /r/ is not even a native sound in most English varieties. As for the vowel, /e/, Longman uses it to represent the same vowel as in "bed". Then what's the vowel in "bed"? Well, that's the same vowel as in "led". LOL! In other words, it depends on your dialect. If you use IPA's correct / ɛ/ in those words, then Longman's /e/ actually represents your /ɛ/, and so you'll read Longman's /bed/, /led/, /red/ as /bɛd/, /lɛd/, /ɹɛd/ instead, because Longman is using its own phonemic transcription, which only points out the basic syllables that make up a word, but what they actually sound like depends on your dialect (or the one you chose to use if you are a non-native speaker).
Pter
Nope! If you're going to use MW, then you have to follow its conventions if you want to be able to read the transcriptions. If they say /er/ is what they are going to write whenever there's something that sounds like "air", then you have to read /er/ the same way you read /air/, no matter if you read MW's /e/ differently. You have MW's /e/ as in BET, and you have MW's /er/ as in AIR. Those represent basic "bricks" to build words, according MW's conventions, and are not accurate phonetic transcriptions. My "e" in BED is something like IPA /ɛ/, and for most native speaker AIR is something that can vary from IPA /eɹ/ to /ɛɹ/ (I think it's usually in between). Longman and MW refer to the AIR phoneme as /er/, but that doesn't mean you have to read it as IPA /eɹ/ or anything. As I said, it usually varies form IPA /eɹ/ to /ɛɹ/, and you say it the way it's natural in your variety. Pter“? ? ? ? ? It is driving me nuts! ”
Yeah, I know... I once tried to understand what you're trying to understand now, and I DID go crazy.  GG“Tray saying bee (like the insect) and add then R, and you'll say "beer."”
For example, I used to pronounce BEER that way, with an IPA /i/, until Jim made me realize it's usually different, and the vowel is more like like IPA / ɪ/. Look it up on MW you'll see they write /bir/, which roughly corresponds to IPA /b ɪr/ (sorry, it that should have been an /ɹ/, but I'm sick and tired of it, I'll use /r/ in my transcriptions anyway  ) Just my opinion anyway. There are a lot of regional differences, and I admit that transcriptions in dictionaries can be quite confusing for learners if they don't already know the features of the English variety they are learning.
Joined on
Thu, Dec 22 2005
Italy
Senior Member
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Parental Advisory / Explicit Posts
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Pter
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514865
Sat, 17 May 08 02:51 PM
Thanks Kooyeen for sharing your frustration you have gone through. Basically, I understand the limitation of "broad transcription", i.e. a set of simplified symbols instead of the complete set of IPA. They are easier to read and generally won't cause any problems for native speakers. So, to begin with, you must know how a sound is actually pronounced by native speakers as a reference and generalize it when reading the transcriptions. However, my problem in this particular case is not exactly that of a transcription issue. My problem is that the voice recording in the MW dictionary website for bet and hair are OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT in the sound of the vowel, but both of them use the same / e / in the transcription. Different sound, same transcription. I can accept this "different sound, same transcription" situation for consonants because they are the "same" sound in the sense that they are allophones of the same phoneme. For example, clear L vs dark L, flapped T vs non-flapped T. I have no problem with those because they don't cause any confusion to me. However, for vowels, I would say this is a big problem in the transcription system. To me the quality of the vowel for bet is different from that of hair (at least this is what I heard from the voice recordings in MW and native speakers that I met). This kind of transcription is just plain wrong! How can a dictionary use the same symbol for two different vowel sounds? ? ?
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Kooyeen
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514893
Sat, 17 May 08 04:18 PM
Pter“To me the quality of the vowel for bet is different from that of hair (at least this is what I heard from the voice recordings in MW and native speakers that I met).”
Yes, that's what I think too, generally speaking, but that's not true for every American, I think. I usually seem to hear (and I would say) something more close to /er/ than / ɛr/, but the truth is that it can vary from /er/ to / ɛr/ depending on the dialect or the speaker.
Pter“My problem is that the voice recording in the MW dictionary website for bet and hair are OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT in the sound of the vowel, but both of them use the same / e / in the transcription. Different sound, same transcription. ”
There are several ways to look at that. I think the best way to look at it is that, yes, it's true it's the same symbol /e/, but in "air" is is followed by a /r/, in "hair" it's followed by a /r/, in "fair" it's followed by a /r/... and in "bed" there's no /r/ after it! No /r/ right after /e/ in "red" either! So MW's /e/ represents a sound, and /er/ represents another combinations of sounds which could potentially even be completely different from /e/ and /r/ taken separately, and there aren't any problems distinguishing /e/ from /er/... the key is the following /r/. You could say that an /r/ following an /e/ affects the quality of the /e/ that comes right before. Think about it: it's basically the same thing that happens with tapped T's. The dictionaries always write them as simple T's (apart from Cambridge's dictionaries for learners, which show tapped T's). So, same symbol, different sound... it's as wrong as what you say it's wrong with /e/ and /er/! If you know American English, you know where to tap a T and where you should not... Likewise, the same way you consider where a T should be tapped or not, you can easily change the sound of /e/ whenever it comes before an /r/ so that you read /er/ the way you feel most comfortable with. And there are a lot of similar and related issues, /er/ is certainly not the only one. For example, many Americans don't pronounce some T's after N's, and neither do I, so it doesn't matter if every dictionary write the T the transcription of "twenty", because I'm gonna say "twenny" anyway. And whenever I see an / æ/ in front of an /n/, I'm gonna produce that pair as /ɛən/ or /eən/ anyway.  That's all I can say.
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Pter
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514950
Sat, 17 May 08 06:27 PM
Thanks again for your patience in explaining that to me. I think I know what you are talking about. This also happens for the length of vowels before voiceless consonants vs voiced consonants, e.g. bat vs bad. Yes, you are right, the vowel quality is often affected by the following consonant. My problem is that, the pairs of words we discussed before are denoted with different IPA symbols in British English, which is mostly what I learnt, while they are denoted with the same symbol in American English. My only conclusion is that, they are indeed different in British English and warrant the use of different symbols, but they are much closer in American English and are considered only as variants. Now I know I knew nothing about American English.
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Kooyeen
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515311
Sun, 18 May 08 09:19 PM
Ah, I didn't know you used British English... Since you mentioned Merriam-Webster, I thought you wanted to use American English. Pter“My only conclusion is that, they are indeed different in British English and warrant the use of different symbols, but they are much closer in American English and are considered only as variants.”
No, I don't think so, and it's what I've tried to explain so far. Just because a certain symbol is used, doesn't mean it has to sound exactly the same in every case or every dialect. Generally speaking, if there's an intervocalic T in an unstressed syllable, you turn it into a tapped T in American English, but dictionaries use the same symbol anyway, T. So I don't see what's wrong with doing the same thing with vowels, for example. An /e/ before an /r/ changes a little, or a lot, or not at all, depending on the speaker. There are a lot of similar considerations. Another one I can think of is the COT-CAUGHT merger: Merriam-Webster makes a distinction between those two vowels, but I don't, and neither do a lot of native speakers... so whenever I see the symbol they use for the vowel in CAUGHT, I replace it with the vowel in COT. As you see, it doesn't really matter what symbols they use, because I also take account of the features of the variety I want to use as the default one. And an /e/ before an /r/ is something you can consider as a variable feature.
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Pter
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515525
Mon, 19 May 08 11:02 AM
Yes, there are regional variations in American English. Do you know which accent is chosen by MW as the reference in the pronunciation keys. Is it General American? My problem is that, as I have mentioned before, they are indeed denoted differently in British English. The first one is a simple vowel while the second one is a diphthong / e /. The question is whether the diphthong / e / ONLY occurs before an R. If it occurs before some other consonants, such as D, L, T, N ( / -e t /, / -e l /, / -e d /, / -e n / ), using / er / to indicate a different sound from / e / is not a good idea because you'll have problems showing the differences between / -e t /, / -e l /, / -e d /, / -e n / and / -et /, / -el /, / -ed /, / -en / respectively. Certain combination of sounds just do not exist in English and that's why they don't need to use diacritic
to indicate that the P in SP is non-aspirated whereas an initial P is
aspirated. The bottom line is that the pronunciation keys have to be
non-ambiguous. This is the same reason why they don't need to use diacritic to indicate tapped intervocalic T or final dark L. (Clear L at syllabic final position does not exist.) I did a search in my pronunciation dictionary and found that the combinations / -e t / and / -e l / do not exist. / -e d / and / -e n / only exist when the spelling has an R between / e / and the following consonant. Since British English is non-rhotic, the corresponding American pronunciation would have an R before that consonant, resulting in / rd / and / rn /. So, / e / ONLY occurs before an R! As a result, using / er / in American English to represent the counterpart of the British English / e / is non-ambiguous after all! After going through all these discussions, I finally found out the reasons. Kooyeen, many thanks indeed for discussing this issue with me. Without your insights, I would not have been able to find out the underlying issues that has been troubling me. EDIT: It appears that / e / was the result of the influence of the following R sound on the / e / sound. It is therefore actually the equivalent of / er / in American English. However, because British English is non-rhotic, the R influence results in the / e / becoming a diphthong, i.e. a schwa is added after the / e / to become / e /. EDIT 2: While adding the above EDITed text, I just found that what I guessed was probably right. http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/text-only/received-pronunciation/london/ The vowels of youthListen first to the vowel
sound she uses in the words air, there, their, where, somewhere and parents. In traditional forms of RP, they would be pronounced with a diphthong – that is two vowel sounds. Older RP speakers would start with an <e> sound – as in bed – before drifting into a weak vowel rather like the initial sound in about. This type of pronunciation, also applied to words such as dare, hair and bear,
was until relatively recently common in many English accents. The
diphthong emerged once speakers began to omit the <r> sound at
the end. Speakers throughout the UK once pronounced this <r>
sound, but it is increasingly restricted to speakers in the West
Country and far South West of England, a small area of Lancashire and
most of Scotland and Ireland. It is also present in most US English
accents. The <r> sound was initially replaced by the weak vowel
at the end of the diphthong, but nowadays most younger RP speakers omit
this final part of the diphthong and simply use a long <e> sound
– thus shared is pronounced with exactly the same vowel as in shed, only the vowel is noticeably longer. This demonstrates perfectly how successive
sound changes can radically alter the pronunciation of
a set of words. Most RP speakers, like Michelle, now
only distinguish between pairs such as fairs and fez or flared and fled simply by vowel length. Older speakers tend to use a diphthong for the first
word in each pair.
It means that the Received Pronunciation that I have been learning (and indicated on all the dictionaries) is only that of the older generation! What a surprising finding from this simple question of fair-haired!
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Kooyeen
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516774
Wed, 21 May 08 09:03 PM
Pter“Do you know which accent is chosen by MW as the reference in the pronunciation keys. Is it General American?”
No idea. The audio files comes from several different speakers, but I think I've always heard "accentless" pronunciations from MW. So I guess it might me General American, generally speaking. Pter“Certain combination of sounds just do not exist in English and that's why they don't need to use diacritic to indicate that the P in SP is non-aspirated whereas an initial P is aspirated. The bottom line is that the pronunciation keys have to be non-ambiguous. This is the same reason why they don't need to use diacritic to indicate tapped intervocalic T or final dark L. (Clear L at syllabic final position does not exist.)”
Well, you say it's non-ambiguous because you know that a certain T has to be tapped, a certain P must not be aspirated, a certain L should be dark, and so on. You know that certain combinations are not common or not possible at all in English, and you avoid them. Then what's wrong in pronouncing MW's combination /er/ the way it should be, as you do with all other combinations? The only difference is that the way it should be depends on your accent, and there is more than one acceptable way to produce that combination. Pter“As a result, using / er / in American English to represent the counterpart of the British English / e  / is non-ambiguous after all!”
Yep, exactly, but it wouldn't have been ambiguous anyway... unless you expected dictionaries to always give a "perfect" transcription, corresponding to a specific accent. Since there is often more than one neutral accent and way of pronouncing words, dictionaries give more general transcriptions that can usually be adapted to your accent. Pter“Kooyeen, many thanks indeed for discussing this issue with me. Without your insights, I would not have been able to find out the underlying issues that has been troubling me.”
No problem... but remember I'm not an expert, lol. it's just that I once had your exact same problems with transcriptions. I had no idea how many different accents and acceptable ways of speaking there were. There are really a lot, and finding out general rules that apply to every native speaker is basically impossible.  Pter“ It means that the Received Pronunciation that I have been learning (and indicated on all the dictionaries) is only that of the older generation! What a surprising finding from this simple question of fair-haired! ”
Heh, I know in the UK there are lots of interesting accents. Some people drop this, skip that, shift vowels here, put glottal stops there... Different accent in different places, different social groups, different age groups... It's so in the US too, and in other countries too, I guess. That's why the more I learn, the more I realize I have a lot to learn. But English is an interesting language, isn't it?
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