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MrPedantic  +  82846 Tue, 22 Mar 05 12:17 AM
Hello Guest

Have you lost a century somewhere?

1500-99 = cinquecento = 16th century
1600-99 = seicento = 17th century

MrP
Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member 13,616
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
Guest, 4 yr 222 days ago
Hemmingway took the words from the poem by John Donne which has these last words:


If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less,
Everyman's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind,
Send therefore not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
Guest, 4 yr 222 days ago
I am not the most intellegent person gracing this rock but I find this a very interesting page. I typed in "ask not for who the bell tolls" in my google search box and got this page. I saw that quote on a sign on the news tonight after Terri Shiavo died and wanted to know where it came from. I think that 95% of the definitions that people are giving are correct. It's very interesting that there's more than one meaning for a given "poem". That's what constructive criticism is all about. Maybe that's why people write "poems". If you want to know what something means, ask the person who wrote it. Oh wait, he's dead. Keep up the good work.

I hope I die before I get old
Guest, 4 yr 201 days ago
I read through this discussion with great interest. I was aware of the Hemingway book, the Donne poem and the Shakespeare quote, but I just found another literary reference. I was reading the Raymond Chandler book "The Little Sister" on the plane the other day, and Philip Marlowe (one of Chandler's nods to English literature) says that he hears a bell tolling while talking to Flack, a corrupt and stupid hotel detective. He is obviously telling Flack how meaningless his life is, but Flack does not catch the reference at all. He says that he can't hear the bell. Philip Marlowe is one of the great characters in modern American literature. He is a dissipated intellectual, just like Chandler himself.
selwyn  +  96636 Fri, 06 May 05 07:37 AM
For Whom the Bell Tolls was the title of a novel by Ernest Hemingway, published in 1940 about the Spanish Civil War. The words, however come form a much older source - the English divine, somewhat enigmatical and rakish John Donne (16th/17th century).

He wrote of his apprehensions while lying sick and hearing the church bells tolling believed they were announcing his own death he began a contemplation. The entire quote is a reminder that we are not isolated particles but that each and everyone of us is connected with humanity and that what happens to one, happens to all. The social ramifications of his perspicacity are wide-ranging and cover the whole human experience, especially today where we seem to be uncaring of what happens to our neighbour. You will find the much quoted piece about two thirds of the way down commencing "No man is an Island unto himself" (marked with XXXXXX's):-

Nunc lento sonitu dicunt, Morieris

Now, this Bell tolling softly for another, saies to me, Thou must die.
PERCHANCE hee for whom this Bell tolls, may be so ill, as that he knowes not it tolls for him; And perchance I may thinke my selfe so much better than I am, as that they who are about mee, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for mee, and I know not that. The Church is Catholike, universall, so are all her Actions; All that she does, belongs to all. When she baptizes a child, that action concernes mee; for that child is thereby connected to that Head which is my Head too, and engraffed into that body, whereof I am a member. And when she buries a Man, that action concernes me: All mankinde is of one Author, and is one volume; when one Man dies, one Chapter is not torne out of the booke, but translated into a better language; and every Chapter must be so translated; God emploies several translators; some peeces are translated by age, some by sicknesse, some by warre, some by justice; but Gods hand is in every translation; and his hand shall binde up all our scattered leaves againe, for that Librarie where every booke shall lie open to one another: As therefore the Bell that rings to a Sermon, calls not upon the Preacher onely, but upon the Congregation to come; so this Bell calls us all: but how much more mee, who am brought so neere the doore by this sicknesse. There was a contention as farre as a suite, (in which both pietie and dignitie, religion, and estimation, were mingled) which of the religious Orders should ring to praiers first in the Morning; and it was that they should ring first that rose earliest. If we understand aright the dignitie of this Belle that tolls for our evening prayer, wee would bee glad to make it ours, by rising early, in that application, that it might bee ours, as wel as his, whose indeed it is. The Bell doth toll for him that thinkes it doth; and though it intermit againe, yet from that minute, that that occasion wrought upon him, hee is united to God. Who casts not up his Eye to the Sunne when it rises? but who takes off his Eye from a Comet when that breakes out? Who bends not his eare to any bell, which upon any occasion rings? but who can remove it from that bell, which is passing a peece of himselfe out of this world? XXXXXX No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to knowXXXXXXfor whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. XXXXXXXXNeither can we call this a begging of Miserie or a borrowing of Miserie, as though we were not miserable enough of our selves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the Miserie of our Neighbours. Truly it were an excusable covetousnesse if wee did; for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it. No man hath affliction enough that is not matured, and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction. If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into currant Monies, his treasure will not defray him as he travells. Tribulation is Treasure in the nature of it, but it is not currant money in the use of it, except wee get nearer and nearer our home, Heaven, by it. Another man may be sicke too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a Mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out, and applies that gold to mee: if by this consideration of anothers danger, I take mine owne into contemplation, and so secure my selfe, by making my recourse to my God, who is our onely securitie.

Joined on Fri, May 6 2005
New Member 01
MrPedantic  +  96638 Fri, 06 May 05 07:57 AM
Thank you, Selwyn – and welcome to English Forums!

MrP
Anonymous, 4 yr 121 days ago
I think it could be interpreted this way too... the bells dont toll "for" the dead man...(he's dead !!!)... it tolls for u... reminding you of the reality of your own death...which exists, at a different place in time..
Anonymous, 4 yr 115 days ago
The "Nine Tailors" is a mystery novel by Dorothy L. Sayres. The title is a reference to a particular pattern of "change ringing" of church bells - a rather arcane activity based on complex mathematical combinations that are best left to its devotees to comprehend.

Anonymous, 4 yr 100 days ago
True enough, but that's not the true story. It's a line taken out of a poem by John Donne, 1624, Meditations 17. Please read it.
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