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Ruslana
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558829
Tue, 26 Aug 08 03:36 PM
Hey CB, You sound as if somewhere in the world the situation was COMPLETELY different.  As a Russian citizen, I'm quite content with our freedom of speech for a very simple reason - I do feel safe even if I blame the government. What else can a mere citizen of a country wish for? I can say fat or obese, Negro or black man, I can cover the government with abuse, and that all will draw no consequences. By the way, what source of secondary information convinced you that "All major TV stations are controlled by Putin..."? Can you - personnally - be 100% sure it is the truth? Or you're just repeating what your TV stations (objectivity and unprejudgement of which I tend to put under a GREAT doubt) give you? As to Politkovskaya... you know, those secondary information sources will for sure interpret everything as if it was breaking of freedom of speech. But that's it: interpretation... You can never know the whole truth unless you're an agent involved in the issue (that's valid for any country, I bet).
Joined on
Sat, Dec 17 2005
Senior Member
3,631
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Ruslana
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558848
Tue, 26 Aug 08 04:13 PM
 Ruslana“Hey CB, You sound as if somewhere in the world the situation was COMPLETELY different. ”
I'm wondering what would happen if someone in the US (or Europe) tried to build communism. If that brave guy isn't given a "bad end" right away, I'll believe in existence of REAL freedom in those contries. 
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Cool Breeze
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559164
Wed, 27 Aug 08 10:30 AM
Ruslana “ I'm wondering what would happen if someone in the US (or Europe) tried to build communism. If that brave guy isn't given a "bad end" right away, I'll believe in existence of REAL freedom in those contries. ”
Thank you for the compliment! I couldn't agree more with you on real freedom of speech. If a country believes in the superiority of democracy, it must allow those who oppose democracy by peaceful means to operate freely. There have been and are Communist parties in many western European countries. The Finnish Communist Party was established in 1918 and went bankrupt in 1992 but they still seem to have some action because they even have a website in English. Because the word "Communism" sounds bad to many people's ears, Finnish Communists preferred to be part of a bigger organization called the Finnish People's Democratic League in English. At least I think that's what their name would be in English, I'm not quite sure about it. In those days it was very common to include the word "democratic" in a name that was part of the Iron Curtain league of nations. A good example was the German Democratic Republic (= East Germany). Absolutely no democracy there!
The Finnish Communists were permitted (and are permitted) to exist as a party and they were actually the biggest party in Finland a couple of times. They were also included in a few cabinets and thus ruled Finland together with some other parties. Since the state gives financial aid to all members of Parliament, the Communists are subsidised with taxpayers' money even today. The Finnish People's Democratic League ceased to exist in 1990 when the Soviet Union collapsed but its members continue in politics under the name the Leftist League. The Leftist League has 17 MPs in our parliament. The total of MPs is 200, so the Leftist League occupies about 9 percent of the seats. Anyone who has the signatures of 5,000 supporters can establish a party in Finland and can try to run for parliament. Judging from the present actual Communist Party's Finnish website, the party is still active even though I thought it had ceased to exist as it has no MPs. All the Communistsin our parliament are those of the Leftist League. Maybe the actual Communist Party doesn't consider them good enough Communists, I don't know! The Communists have been at loggerheads for as long as I can remember.
One reason why the Communists got such a lot of votes after the Second World War was in my opinion the fact that the leftists lost the short Civil War we had in 1918. There was a lot of bitterness on their side and many probably "took revenge" by voting Communist as late as the 50s. Old wounds have now healed and few people vote for the die-hard Communists. But as I said, the Leftist League still gets about 9 percent of the vote. Finland used to be the No. 1 country on the Reporters Without Borders press freedom list. We are now at No. 5 and I don't remember the reason why we lost first place. It was something very insignificant and temporary, though. Hopefully we'll get back to No. 1 soon. Any country that hopes to do well on that list must tolerate Communists and allow them to operate freely as long as they obey the law. CB
Joined on
Fri, Apr 7 2006
Senior Member
3,922
"I hope you'll all live to be 150 years old - and the last voice you hear is mine!" Frank Sinatra on stage in Oslo, Norway, 28 September 1991
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Ruslana
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559213
Wed, 27 Aug 08 12:52 PM
You're welcome for the compliment, CB! I'm glad the situation is like that in Finland.
Cool Breeze “If a country believes in the superiority of democracy, it must allow those who oppose democracy by peaceful means to operate freely. There have been and are Communist parties in many western European countries.
The Leftist League has 17 MPs in our parliament. The total of MPs is 200, so the Leftist League occupies about 9 percent of the seats.
Any country that hopes to do well on that list must tolerate Communists and allow them to operate freely as long as they obey the law. ”
I couldn't agree more with you on this. Our Leftist League (Communist Party of Russian Federation - CPRF) has 57 MPs in the parliament. The total of MPs is 450, so the Leftist League occupies about 13 percent of the seats.
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Cool Breeze
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560954
Mon, 01 Sep 08 09:26 AM
" A reporter who had criticized the Kremlin and the Russian authorities on the Internet was shot on Sunday in Ingusia, Russia. The police arrested Magomed Jevlojev at the Ingusia airport on Sunday and took him to a police car. Jevlojev was shot in the head in the car and he was thrown onto the road thereafter, said vice editor-in-chief of website www.ingushetiya.ru Ruslan Khautijev.Jevlojev died in hospital. In an article published on the website he had accused the local authorities of mistreating local people. According to the Russian State Prosecutor, the case is under investigation." (Reuters, AP)
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Neversaynever
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561000
Mon, 01 Sep 08 11:59 AM
<<I'm wondering what would happen if someone in the US (or Europe) tried to build communism. If that brave guy isn't given a "bad end" right away, I'll believe in existence of REAL freedom in those contries.>> Hi Ruslana (and CB)  , Interesting discussion you have here. However, I think you need to define what 'freedom' is and then what 'freedom of speech' is. Firstly, I will define these according to my own understanding. Freedom does not mean doing what you want (especially when it is not in the individual sense). It means that you have rights in the laws of the country you are living in, those are your freedom. Your freedom is what you are given, what is decided in the laws, and most of the things you think you are free to choose or think you have chosen freely are insisted on you. There is a definition 'Freedom is to have the right of not doing what you don't want to do'. It's a bit like opposite of 'having the right of doing what you want', but there is a huge difference between the two, as you might notice. States are built on some principles - or let's say constitution. For example, in Turkish constitution, the first four item is about these such as the first three says the country is secular, social, its capital is Ankara, etc.... the fourth item says that the first three items cannot be changed and they cannot be even suggested to change. Think of the state as an organic matter. The building stones of the country are its power and basically what it is. Freedom of speech, on the other hand, is defined as 'saying what you want to say' which I believe in 100% even though there is no 100% of that in Turkey (but that is another thing and a long and a deep subject). In Turkey, there is a communist party, there are (were) parties that is (was) conservative, etc. However, when freedom of speech is OK but you cannot put it into practice (here is your freedom(!) ) because it is opposed to those building stones in the country. But, you even if you cannot say it, you can think it. Here is what propaganda is for, and Ruslana you may think that you are free and has the freedom of speech 100% but that is because you are not (were not) aware of what you have been exposed to since you were born and that everything was imposed on you that made you 'you'. I'm not saying these were forced, they weren't, because they didn't want you to think you weren't 'free'. You are thinking that there is anti-russian propaganda going on these days but you are not aware of the propagandas in your media? Let me tell you that, ALL media is controlled, yours is too. It's like that everywhere. OK, all these unorganized thoughts came out of my mind... this all may seem unrelated but actually they are related.  
Joined on
Wed, Nov 1 2006
Turkey
Full Member
238
"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on..." Robert Frost
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ISU_152
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561113
Mon, 01 Sep 08 03:54 PM
Neversaynever “ You are thinking that there is anti-russian propaganda going on these days but you are not aware of the propagandas in your media? ”
Don't forget , we are in Russia can take information not only from mass media ( OK, he always more propaganda , than just information ) but from another sourse only . Internet , Livejournal , and last , but not least news line "One old women said" ( sorry for direct translate of russian proverb ) - Information stream is too wide for someone can control him . Usally I read LJ for iformation first , and watch TV later , for our goverment option
Joined on
Tue, May 22 2007
Full Member
197
Anarchy - order’s mother
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ISU_152
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561136
Mon, 01 Sep 08 04:30 PM
And I remember one old anecdote about this theme : Soviet journalist talk with american - We have freedom of speech - said american - What is meant ? - As example , I can go to White House and say "USA president is dumb" , without any repression - no problem , i can go to red square and said "USA president is dumb" too - and about Stalin you can say such thing ? - No because it is not true To my regret many man understood freedom of speech as right to say anything , without bothering about true or lie he want to say .
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Ruslana
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561171
Mon, 01 Sep 08 06:41 PM
CB, What I like in you is how zealously you provide arguments to prove a "bad" freedom of speech in Russia. Ingusia, located in the Caucasus, has always been an uneasy region, as well as the whole Caucasus. This means that lots of murders may occur there without any dependence on the fact who people are from a professional point of view. So what I think about the quote (of course I may be very-very wrong for the propaganda I have been under for, apparently, all my life ): 1. It didn't provide any statistic for all murders happened in the region. (The reporter could be just one of many for the reason I mentioned above.) 2. It is simply a nicely extorted and stressed fact, without any attention to details that might have shed other light on the event.
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