I need your comment on "future tense"

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PASTEL  #126138  Thu, 11 Aug 05 07:12 PM

Hello, Davkett!

Do you still remember our previous scenario? Okay, I'll give you a quick review. Stella is arriving tomorrow morning but our careless Steve forgets the exact time she'll arrive.

Steve: She's arriving tomorrow morning.

Sabrina said to Steve that if he knows when she'll arrive tomorrow morning. Does 'when' sound unnatural? Would you say 'make sure you let me know what time she'll arrive tomorrow morning' or 'make sure you let me know when she'll arrive tomorrow morning'?

 

 

Rose [F]

 

 

  
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PASTEL  #126141  Thu, 11 Aug 05 07:22 PM

I would tell him before the concert starts so he wouldn't want to go the the concert with me.

 

  
PASTEL  #126142  Thu, 11 Aug 05 07:25 PM
 Davkett wrote:

I'll happily respond to you, Pastel, until someone more familiar with the grammatical terms and categories jumps in.

Thanks, Davkett. You've been very helpful.

  
davkett  #126323  Fri, 12 Aug 05 03:26 PM

Pastel, I wrote a reply to your scenario yesterday, and when I hit the 'post' button, I saw that I couldn't connect to the website--for the rest of the day, actually... and my reply was lost.

Here's my attempt to remember what was fresh in my mind yesterday:

If Sabrina hopes to meet Stella at the airport as she comes off the plane,  she will say to Steve, 'Make sure you let me know when  Stella will arrive' or, 'Make sure you let me know what time Stella will arrive.'  Both sound fine to me.  Sabrina needs to know, in the present, something about an event in the future.

Her one need is to have this question answered:  'When will Stella arrive?'

The answer depends on Steve, who must make sure to...  'Let me know.'

So, 'Make sure you let me know when Stella will arrive.'

If Sabrina has no intention of greeting Stella when she lands at the airport, but simply wants to know when Stella has arrived, it is enough for her to say to Steve, 'Make sure you let me know when Stella arrives.'  Or possibly, 'Make you sure you will let me know when she arrives.'

Does this relate to what you are really asking?

  
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Roro  #126451  Fri, 12 Aug 05 08:05 PM
Hi PASTEL. Sorry for my slow reply! Nice talking to you again.
And thanks a lot for your pictures. Where are YOU, Pastel..! Are you among the last picture? (I mean in Beautiful Moon's Wedding section's last picture).
What was your impression of North-Eastaern Japan? I couldn't see your name on this site for a while because you were traveling?
Well, please say hello to your family, they are so cute!

{quote=Pastel} What made you think so, Roro?

Seems it's too late to say something now... let me think...
  
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Roro  #126536  Sat, 13 Aug 05 02:50 AM
Hi PASTEL. I'm quite sure, you're far more better at English than I am. My doubt above concerned purely a matter of terminology. I'd insist (if I have to) that we should call only〖will+inf.〗forms as 'future tense.' Of course they include〖will be going to+inf.〗〖will be ~ing〗etc. too.
〖be going to+inf.〗is a combination of present tense +other grammaticalized meaning.
〖will+inf.〗and other forms express not only the distinction of tense, especially in conditionals, I think, so I felt uneasy all the more.

I was thinking roughly such things. You know, it's merely terminological matter, and seems it doesn't concern your discussion directly.
  
MrPedantic  #126704  Sat, 13 Aug 05 04:51 PM

Will have to/am going to have to stick my head under the cold tap and have a rethink.

I hope no one minds if I step back through the wormhole into the middle of last week (for a moment).

I'm finding it quite difficult to arrive at a working definition of the difference between future 'will' and future 'be going to'. As Paco has said elsewhere, context seems to make a great deal of difference; as do the various permutations of a) who is speaking b) who is the subject of 'be going to'.

Here are a few sentences, with my first impression of what the 'be going to' means in each case. I'd be particularly interested to hear if any of these interpretations seem wholly outlandish or insufficient to anyone:

1. If you’re going to be delayed, let me know → If, later, you think you’ll be delayed, let me know.

2. If you stroke that dog again, it’s going to bite you → If you stroke that dog again, it’ll bite you, as you should know.

3. If he isn’t going to come home with us, there’s no need to wait → If he doesn’t intend to to come home with us, there’s no need to wait.

Cf.

3a. If he won’t come home with us, there’s no need to wait → If he doesn’t want to come home with us, there’s no need to wait.

4. When I grow up, I’m going to be a train driver → I’ve decided to be a train driver, when I grow up.

5. Ask MrQ if he’s going to come out tonight → Ask MrQ if he intends to come out tonight.

6. If Snow White eats that apple, she’s going to die → If Snow White eats that apple, she‘ll certainly die.

7. If I catch you talking to my girlfriend again, there’s going to be trouble → I warn you, If I catch you talking to my girlfriend again, there’ll certainly be trouble.

8. If I catch you talking to my girlfriend again, you’re going to regret it. → I warn you, if I catch you talking to my girlfriend again, you will certainly regret it.

9. If he’s going to be rude about my girlfriend, I’m going to be rude about his → If he continues to be rude about my girlfriend, I’ll start being rude about his.

Cf.

9a. If he’s rude about my girlfriend, I’ll leave → If he starts to be rude about my girlfriend, I will certainly leave.

10. If we go on like this, we're going to lose all our money → As you should know, if we go on like this, we'll lose all our money.

11. You're going to knock that glass over if you're not more careful → As you should be aware, you will knock that glass over if you’re not more careful.

12. If you look carefully, you're going to find writing scratched on the glass → I assure you that if you look carefully, you'll find writing scratched on the glass.

13. If you move to your left, you're going to be able to see the church → I assure you that if you move to your left, you'll be able to see the church.

14. If you're ready, I'm going to show you how it works → You should be ready by now; but ready or not, I intend to show you how it works.  

15. If you want to leave this afternoon, Joe is going to take you to the station → If you want to leave this afternoon, that’s just as well, because it has been arranged that Joe will take you to the station.

16. If we don't leave now, we’re going to miss our train → If we don't leave now, we’ll certainly miss our train.

17. If you heat water to 100C, it's going to boil. → If you heat water to 100C, of course it will boil.

18. If John comes, Mary is going to leave → If John comes, I assure you, Mary will leave.

That's it...

MrP

  
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PASTEL  #126722  Sat, 13 Aug 05 05:23 PM

 Davkett wrote:

If Sabrina hopes to meet Stella at the airport as she comes off the plane,  she will say to Steve, 'Make sure you let me know when  Stella will arrive' or, 'Make sure you let me know what time Stella will arrive.'  Both sound fine to me.  Sabrina needs to know, in the present, something about an event in the future.

How are you? Davkett! Smile [:)] 

I was about to check my forum but same result, I couldn't connect here. And I didn't see any replies to my previous message; I thought you left without saying good-bye. I understand what you said here and my question was if I add the time expression to the end of the sentence,

1- Make sure you let me know when(???) Stella will arrive tomorrow morning.

2- Make sure you let me know what time(okay) Stella will arrive tomorrow morning.

Then does #1 sound okay? Do I make myself understood?

 

 

  
PASTEL  #126731  Sat, 13 Aug 05 05:37 PM
 Davkett wrote:

The sentence by itself is ambiguous, as you suspect.  Here is how I would explain the ambiguity, the effect of which may be exactly what you've expressed, in your own way.

I'll tell you when the concert starts. =

1.  I'll tell you what time the concert starts.  

2.  I'll tell you [something] at the time when the concert starts.

Surrounding context should make it clear which meaning applies. 

Hi again!

We've already settled this one. Mais j'ai une question ce pres-midi. When we write, there's no intonation problem. When we talk, however, stress and intonation can make difference in meaning. 'THANK you' v.s 'Thank YOU.'

If I want to express something that I'm going to tell you, I think 'when' receives less stress than it does in example #1--what time the concert starts.

It's a bad idea to ask intonation questions on Internet forums where ideas are exchanged in written words, not audible words.

 

Bat [:-[]   

  
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