Eugene Kononov    737547 Mon, 10 Nov 03 01:17 PM In many languages (including my native language), all nouns are gender specific (normally male, female, or neutral). English is different, of course, but it seems that English speaking people long for that explicit relation in their language. I was taking a ride with my colleagues (all Americans) the other day, and we observed a butterfly near by. When it disappered, one of my colleagues said, "Oh, he is gone". When I asked the colleague about why he decided to use a "he" (not a "she") in reference to a butterfly, he couldn't explain. I then recalled from a book that there is a vague usage pattern in English that when you try to personalize an object, you should use *your* gender. Here is my question: is there, in fact, a formal (or informal) grammatical rule or structure in English that prescribes the use of the *speaker* gender when the speaker refers to some non-human things whose gender is either unknown or not even applicable? Thanks, Eugene. Eugene Kononov Nouns, Genders, Business, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Friendships, United States, American, Usages, Speaking, Chat, References, Career, Languages

	david56    737555 Mon, 10 Nov 03 01:33 PM "In many languages (including my native language), all nouns are gender specific (normally male, female, or neutral). English is different, ... the *speaker* gender when the speaker refers to some non-human things whose gender is either unknown or not even applicable?" Not that I'm aware of. Some inanimate objects are feminine (ships, cars), but that's about as far as it goes. A butterfly is either male or female - if you can tell the difference then you use the appropriate pronoun, otherwise I would personally use "it". Some animals are easy of course (cows, mallard ducks, blackbirds), so these tend to have the right pronoun. David == david56 Nouns, Genders, Pronouns, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Languages

	Paul Rooney    737560 Mon, 10 Nov 03 01:41 PM "Not that I'm aware of. Some inanimate objects are feminine (ships, cars)," I wouldn't go that far, David. Some people do refer to them as though they were feminine, but most of us don't! Paul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): http://paulrooney.netfirms.com Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: http://www.justgiving.com/london2004 Paul Rooney Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain

	Donna Richoux    737568 Mon, 10 Nov 03 01:42 PM "In many languages (including my native language), all nouns are gender specific (normally male, female, or neutral). English is different, ... the *speaker* gender when the speaker refers to some non-human things whose gender is either unknown or not even applicable?" No. Sorry. Not at all. Best wishes Donna Richoux Donna Richoux Nouns, Genders, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Languages, Apologies

	david56    737570 Mon, 10 Nov 03 01:46 PM "Not that I'm aware of. Some inanimate objects are feminine (ships, cars)," "I wouldn't go that far, David. Some people do refer to them as though they were feminine, but most of us don't!" True. Some inanimate objects are referred to as "she" by some people (that is, the feminine pronoun doesn't sound odd as it would with most inanimate objects. David == david56 Pronouns

	CyberCypher    737571 Mon, 10 Nov 03 01:52 PM Paul Rooney (Email Removed) wrote on 10 Nov 2003: "Not that I'm aware of. Some inanimate objects are feminine (ships, cars)," "I wouldn't go that far, David. Some people do refer to them as though they were feminine, but most of us don't!" How do you know that "most of us don't"? You may not, but most of the people I know do. I don't know you, so you don't count. Ever read she being Brand-new ? CyberCypher

	MEow    737576 Mon, 10 Nov 03 02:00 PM "Not that I'm aware of. Some inanimate objects are feminine (ships, cars), but that's about as far as it goes. ... use "it". Some animals are easy of course (cows, mallard ducks, blackbirds), so these tend to have the right pronoun." I always refer to cats in feminine, unless I know that the cat I'm talking about is male. They strike me as being feminine, by default. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. The Danish language has 2 genders: Non-gender and double-gender. Same thing with Swedish and Norwegian. Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18 ICQ# 251532856 Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my gnu?" Carl LHS Williams (Sheddie) MEow Genders, Pronouns, Friendships, Speaking, Chat, Languages

	John Dean    737607 Mon, 10 Nov 03 02:16 PM "Not that I'm aware of. Some inanimate objects are feminine ... ducks, blackbirds), so these tend to have the right pronoun." "I always refer to cats in feminine, unless I know that the cat I'm talking about is male. They strike me as being feminine, by default. Don't ask me why, because I don't know." For some reason, the UK advertising industry tends to refer to cats as feminine and dogs as masculine 'She'll enjoy Sheba ... He'll love Pal' As pointed out earlier, ships tend to be referred to as feminine. So do vintage cars. Australians have a phrase 'She'll be right'. Lancastrians have a phrase 'Who's 'she'? The cat's mother?' John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply John Dean Pronouns, Friendships, Speaking, Chat

	david56    737629 Mon, 10 Nov 03 02:56 PM "I always refer to cats in feminine, unless I know ... by default. Don't ask me why, because I don't know." "For some reason, the UK advertising industry tends to refer to cats as feminine and dogs as masculine 'She'll enjoy ... So do vintage cars. Australians have a phrase 'She'll be right'. Lancastrians have a phrase 'Who's 'she'? The cat's mother?'" That reaches a lot further south than Lancashire - it was perfectly common in my Midlands childhood. But it's a different issue - the retort is pointing out that it's rude to refer to somebody who is present by a third person pronoun. Child, to father: "*She* says I can't go out to play". Mother (interrupting): "Who's 'She'? The cat's mother?" David == david56 Pronouns, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain