GENITIVE

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Anonymous  #530356  Sat, 21 Jun 08 12:08 AM
Hi,
It seems to have been noted that there are these three types of genitives among others:
1) genitive of classification
2) genitive of purpose
3) genitive of possession

What I have trouble is with no. 1. and 2. Where does this belong?
a men's toilet
This doesn't seem so much different from the form:
a teachers' seminar
But the first one merely classifies or notes the purpose of the place -- a place for men
Then again, the second one can be said to do the same thing -- decribe what the seminar is for (for teachers)

Then, it has been said if an adjective is there for the purpose of describing, a non-possessive form should be used.
a worker attendance sheet

Which one can be used here?
1) They had to cut workers' pay more to the level mandated /stipulated  in the contract.
2) They had to cut the worker pay more to the level mandated /stipulated  in the contract.
  
Avangi  #530371  Sat, 21 Jun 08 01:18 AM
It seems that in "men's toilet" and "teachers' seminar," whom it's for takes precedence over what it's for, therefore, possession.    I think in both cases the nouns adaquately describe the purposes (toilet/seminar), although the second is probably more arguable.  

Regarding the second issue, my sense is that both may be used, depending on what the author wishes to stress.

They decided to raise executive pay and cut worker pay.

They gave the workers a better health plan, but then they cut the workers' pay to make up for it.

  - A.

Edit.  In the first sentence, "takes precedence" is confusing.  I think the toilet belongs to the men and the seminar belongs to the teachers.  As you point out later, if "teacher" were a descriptor, we'd say "teacher seminar."  (Is it your understanding that this applies only when the descriptor is an adjective in the traditional sense?)

Edit Edit.  Well, looks like I'm wrong again.  If we would say, toilet for men / seminar for teachers, we call it purpose.  If we would say toilet of men / seminar of teachers, we call it possession.  Again, the second one is arguable.  It would be more (nearly) clear if we were talking about "college."  In the British sense, "college of women/teachers." (possession)     In the American sense, "college for women/teachers." (purpose)

Note.  My understanding is that an American college is an institution of learning while a British college is an organization of students to facilitate their learning goals.
  
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