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Get, take, have

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whl626  #10747  Tue, 14 Oct 03 01:06 PM
When you look up a word in a dictionary. The phonetics ( the awkward symbols besides it ) is bound to be there. As long as you get to know how to use it. The difficulty in pronouncing every single word will become a thing in the pastSmile [:)]. I taught some students who knew nothing about English. They also can pick it up and say goodbye to pronunciation in a matter of weeks ( including the time to practice ) :P
  
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hitchhiker  #11929  Sat, 01 Nov 03 01:22 PM
Moved this thread..
  
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Anonymous  #149395  Wed, 19 Oct 05 09:18 AM
 Advoca wrote:
Here is some advice on the use of got and gotten.

Got is the past tense and past participle of get.

You use have got to say that someone has a particular thing, or to mention a quality or characteristic that someone or something has.
I’ve got a coat just like this.
*** hasn’t got a work permit.
Have you got any ideas?.
*** city has got its good and bad points.
The policeman asked, “Have you got any identification?”

In informal spoken American English, people sometimes just use ‘got’.

Got a coat just like this?
***’s not got a work permit.
Got any ideas?
The policeman asked, “Got any identification?”


*** both British English and formal American English, the past participle of ‘get’ is got, not ‘gotten.’


I couldn't disagree with you more.  I'm not sure where you're from, but I'm sure you didn't grow up in the US.  Sentences like "She's not got a work permit." sound VERY strange to the American ear.  In FORMAL usage as well as informal, the past participle of get is gotten.  If you say something like "I have got 6 packages this month.", most Americans will have a low opinion of your English.  Also, in England "gotten" has appeared at least as far back as in the King James bible.  It is only more recently that the Brittish stopped using it.

The got/gotten distintion actually affects the meaning of a sentence.  Permit me to quote A.H. Marckwardt, author of American English (1958): "... most Americans regularly make a very precise distinction between got and gotten. 'We've got ten thousand dollars for laboratory equipment,' means that the funds are in our possession--we have them. 'We have gotten ten thousand dollars for laboratory equipment,' means that we have obtained or acquired this particular sum of money. Few Americans would have the slightest question about the difference in the meaning of these two sentences...." In other words, got means you obtained something in the indefinite past, and gotten means you recently acquired it.

Considering the fact that clearly dividing got and gotten allows for more precise comminication, as well as the fact that 70% of all native English speakers in the world are American, I STRONGLY encourage any readers NOT to tell foreign learners that "got" is an acceptable past participle.  Even those 30% of English speakers who are not American have seen US television and Hollywood movies.  They will understand gotten.  In the end you have to consider what is best for your students.  Being mis-understood by the majority of the worlds Engilsh speakers (not to mention the fact that they are members of the worlds largest economy) is NOT good for them.
  
Anonymous  #149420  Wed, 19 Oct 05 11:18 AM
 Advoca wrote:
Here is some advice on the use of got and gotten.

Got is the past tense and past participle of get.

You use have got to say that someone has a particular thing, or to mention a quality or characteristic that someone or something has.
I’ve got a coat just like this.
*** hasn’t got a work permit.
Have you got any ideas?.
*** city has got its good and bad points.
The policeman asked, “Have you got any identification?”

In informal spoken American English, people sometimes just use ‘got’.

Got a coat just like this?
***’s not got a work permit.
Got any ideas?
The policeman asked, “Got any identification?”


*** both British English and formal American English, the past participle of ‘get’ is got, not ‘gotten.’


I couldn't disagree with you more.  I'm not sure where you're from, but I'm sure you didn't grow up in the US.  Sentences like "She's not got a work permit." sound VERY strange to the American ear.  In FORMAL usage as well as informal, the past participle of get is gotten.  If you say something like "I have got 6 packages this month.", most Americans will have a low opinion of your English.  Bending the quotation and puctuation rules as I did above, will not get that reaction.

The got/gotten distintion actually affects the meaning of a sentence.  Permit me to quote A.H. Marckwardt, author of American English (1958): "... most Americans regularly make a very precise distinction between got and gotten. 'We've got ten thousand dollars for laboratory equipment,' means that the funds are in our possession--we have them. 'We have gotten ten thousand dollars for laboratory equipment,' means that we have obtained or acquired this particular sum of money. Few Americans would have the slightest question about the difference in the meaning of these two sentences...." In other words, got means you obtained something in the indefinite past, and gotten means you recently acquired it.

Considering the fact that clearly dividing got and gotten allows for more precise comminication, as well as the fact that 70% of all native English speakers in the world are American, I STRONGLY encourage any readers NOT to tell foreign learners that "got" is an acceptable past participle.  Even those 30% of English speakers who are not American have seen US television and Hollywood movies.  They will understand gotten.  In the end you have to consider what is best for your students.  Being mis-understood by the majority of the worlds English speakers (not to mention the fact that they are members of the worlds largest economy) is NOT good for them.
  
David  #149442  Wed, 19 Oct 05 12:39 PM

Dear Anon,

If the Americans choose to say gotten that is their business. No one I know says gotten except Americans using the English language and you obviously haven't done your homework.People in Canada, Australia, India ,Malta ,New Zealand, Great Britain and Ireland etc as well as yours truly would never say gotten. Sounds awful.

 

  
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Anonymous  #149449  Wed, 19 Oct 05 12:57 PM
1) As I mentioned before, "gotten" has appeared in Brittish works as far back as the King James Bible.  Here is a passage from Genisis:   And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.  Surely you don't think that the men King James commissioned Americans to write this in 1611?  As I said in my previous post, it is a fairly recent phenomenon for the British to avoid this word.

2) First off,  many Canadians, including my father, say "gotten".  But even if were "just Americans" that use "gotten", Americans alone account for about 70% percent of all native English speakers.  If you are teaching an IELTS prep course or a course specifically aimed at British English, then by all means use "got", but otherwise you are doing your students a disservice by not teaching them the most widely used form.
  
Anonymous  #149454  Wed, 19 Oct 05 01:10 PM
 David wrote:

.People in Canada, Australia, India ,Malta ,New Zealand, Great Britain and Ireland etc as well as yours truly would never say gotten. Sounds awful.



As it probably also sounds awful to many of the English speakers in these countries;

Here are some other countries where British style English is spoken, in many but not all cases as the native language.
Aden (Yemen)
Ascension Island
Anguilla
Australia
Bahamas
Bahrain
Barbados
Basutoland (Lesotho)
Bechuanaland (Botswana)
Bermuda
British Cameroon
British Guyana (Guyana)
British Honduras (Belize)
British Somaliland (Somalia)
British Solomon Islands
Brunei
Burma (Myanmar)
Canada
Cayman Islands
Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
Cook Islands
Cyprus
Falkland Islands and dependencies
Egypt
Fiji
Gambia
Gibraltar
Gilbert and Ellice Islands (Kiribati & Tuvalu)
Gold Coast (Ghana)
Grenada
Hong Kong
India (included Pakistan & Bangladesh)
Iraq
Ireland
Jamaica
Kenya
Kuwait
Malaya (West Malaysia)
Maldive Islands
Malta
Mauritius
Montserrat
Newfoundland (Canada)
New Hebrides (with France) Vanuatu
New Zealand
North Borneo (Sabah)
Nyasaland (Malawi)
Oman
Papua New Guinea
Palestine (Falestin/Israel)
Pitcairn Island
Qatar
Rhodesia (Zimbabwe and Zambia)
Sarawak (East Malaysia)
St Helena
St Kitts
St Lucia
St Vincent
Seychelles
South Africa
Swaziland
Tanganyika (Tanzania)
Tonga
Transjordan (Jordan)
Trinidad
Tristan Da Cunha
Trucial Oman (United Arab Emirates)
Turks and Caicos Islands
Uganda
Western Samoa
Zanzibar (Tanzania) Aden (Yemen)
Ascension Island
Anguilla
Australia
Bahamas
Bahrain
Barbados
Basutoland (Lesotho)
Bechuanaland (Botswana)
Bermuda
British Cameroon
British Guyana (Guyana)
British Honduras (Belize)
British Somaliland (Somalia)
British Solomon Islands
Brunei
Burma (Myanmar)
Canada
Cayman Islands
Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
Cook Islands
Cyprus
Falkland Islands and dependencies
Egypt
Fiji
Gambia
Gibraltar
Gilbert and Ellice Islands (Kiribati & Tuvalu)
Gold Coast (Ghana)
Grenada
Hong Kong
India (included Pakistan & Bangladesh)
Iraq
Ireland
Jamaica
Kenya
Kuwait
Malaya (West Malaysia)
Maldive Islands
Malta
Mauritius
Montserrat
Newfoundland (Canada)
New Hebrides (with France) Vanuatu
New Zealand
North Borneo (Sabah)
Nyasaland (Malawi)
Oman
Papua New Guinea
Palestine (Falestin/Israel)
Pitcairn Island
Qatar
Rhodesia (Zimbabwe and Zambia)
Sarawak (East Malaysia)
St Helena
St Kitts
St Lucia
St Vincent
Seychelles
South Africa
Swaziland
Tanganyika (Tanzania)
Tonga
Transjordan (Jordan)
Trinidad
Tristan Da Cunha
Trucial Oman (United Arab Emirates)
Turks and Caicos Islands
Uganda
Western Samoa
Zanzibar (Tanzania)
  
David  #149456  Wed, 19 Oct 05 01:15 PM
Try again Anon. Thank God we have made some progress since then. I suggest you see the long list of English speakers. Unintentionally it is you who may be doing the disservice. Have a good day.
  
Anonymous  #149530  Wed, 19 Oct 05 07:01 PM
David, I find your posts extremely rude.  There is no need to tell me in each post how I "obviously haven't done my homework", or how "it is I who may be doing the students a disservice".  There is no need to make ad hominem attacks.  I have supported my views with evidence  in  each post and I will continue to do so.

According to wikipedia, 67.2% of all native English speakers are American (and 5.8% are Canadian).  Assuming about half of Canadians lean toward American usage, that would be 70% even if no other English speaking country in the world used American English.  Ethnologue.com also concurrs that American English is used by about 70% of all native English speakers.  Do you disagree with this point?  If so, what sources can you cite?

While it is true that there are some areas where British English is dominant as a second language, most notably Inda, American English is emphasized by more people world around the world.  Every single Chinese person must study English in grade school, and American English is the model used for spelling, grammar and diction.  While the (very debatable) list of places that use British English is quite long, the total number of speakers living in all of those places is about equal to the those living in China.   Do you disagree with this point?  If so, what sources can you cite?

In addition to China, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Brazil and Argentina all have thriving ESL markets which have a preference for American English.  Check the job listings at Daves ESL for the Asian countries.   For Latin America, check the message at transitionsabroad.com that says that " the demand tends to be for American English".  Jobs in these countries don't mention a preference for British or American English.  But those that do, are overwhelmingly more likely to prefer American (or N. American) English.  Do you disagree with this point?  If so, what sources can you cite?

Furthermore, all over the world, people are exposed to more American media and culture than British.  Indians (despite their colonial history) probably have more contact with American Media than Japanese have had with British (or Australian or whatever) media.  In fact, I would argue that every single poster on this board has seen more movies made in the US than every single country on the list you wrote in your last post... combined.  Do you disagree with this point?

I don't really see any structured argument coming from you except that you don't think American English sounds very good.  Yes, you wrote a long list of other places where people would agree with you.  But you included Canada (twice since you added Newfoundland).  My entire family is Canadian, and as far as I know they all say "gotten".  But in anycase, of all of the ESL students I've taught in my life (admittedly all in Asia and Latin America) who have told me which people they want to be able to communicate with...  More have said that they want to communicate with Americans than the people from all of those places on your list combined.  Is this surprising to you?

Anyway, it sounds to me like you just have a chip on your shoulder against America.  Hey, I do too, especially these last six years.  But, I don't let that get in the way of doing what's best for my students' careers.  Don't let your own prejudice overrule practicalities.  We don't get into teaching for the money.  We do it to make a positive difference in people's lives.  We do it to open as many doors for them in the future as we can.  We have an awesome power to change their lives for the better, and we are responsible to do all we can to use that power effectively.  If that means giving up petty nationalism and prejudice, then so be it.







  
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