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Is grammar essential for learning a language?

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Doll  #349714  Wed, 11 Apr 07 09:31 PM

Chomsky, come here there is a good topic here!Big Smile [:D]    

We don't learn our native language with the help of grammar but it is not valid for non-natives or else I would talk English according to Turkish grammar rules.What if a Japanese, Spanish or Arabic talk English according to the grammar order of theri languages?I can't even guess!

  
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CalifJim  #349715  Wed, 11 Apr 07 09:32 PM
"Grammar and exercises are only requirements of the syllabus, not of learning a language. Did you learn the grammar of your mother-tongue when you were acquiring it? Most of you may still not know the grammar of your mother-tongue but you speak it effortlessly."

If grammar means identifying the names of parts of speech, the names of the tenses, and that sort of knowledge of terminology (Past Perfect Progressive), then this is certainly not a requirement of learning a language.
If grammar means the knowledge of which words and word-forms go together to make coherent communications within a language, even if instinctively applied, then I think we'd have to say that grammar is a requirement of some kind.

I agree that I did not learn the grammar of my mother-tongue when I was acquiring it -- in the first sense of 'grammar'.
I do think, however, that I "learned"/acquired the grammar of my mother-tongue when I was acquiring it -- in the second sense of  'grammar'.  In fact, except for vocabulary, which is a simple matter of stimulus-response, it seems to me that the acquistion of a language IS the acquisition of its grammar.

It is believed that between the ages of six and ten, the cells in the language acquistion portion of the brain die off or take on a different function, so that it is impossible to acquire language after approximately age 10, certainly after puberty.  Remember that the acquistion of language is like birds "learning" to fly.  They don't exactly study a flight manual before taking off on their first flight!

Nevertheless, though the language acquisition window closes around puberty, most likely for biological reasons, and we may no longer be able to acquire a new language, we can certainly still  learn one.  At this point, we are usually forced to use a lot of artificial techniques to help us.  The logic of a language is no longer as easily grasped instinctively, but must be, we might almost say, 'computed', at least in the beginning stages. The rules for these 'computations' are called grammar.  The 'computation' is not thinking within language but thinking about language, examining language somewhat more objectively than is typical within the language we first acquired.  Sometimes the computational aspect is presented very formally to the learner.  In such systems there is an underlying belief (in the mind of the instuctors) that the terminology is so useful in explaining the grammatical machinery that it cannot be dispensed with.  In other methodologies a more flexible approach is used, sometimes out of fear of the very real possibility (I think) that knowledge of the terminology will be seen as more important than the ability to express oneself in the target language. 

Regardless of how formal or informal, or how rigid or flexible the presentation, I don't see how anyone can learn a language without exercises, despite the obvious fact that we all acquired one without exercises.  We can't expect our muscles to grow strong without exercise, and the failure of some to see the analogy with mental activity is quite puzzling.  And the exercises that are needed are language exercises (practicing using the language), not grammar exercises (practicing using the terminology of grammar).  I find it disheartening to see questions on this very forum in which it is obvious that students must negotiate the fine points of the terminology:  Is this a participle acting as a noun acting as an adverbial complement of a phrasal verb used idiomatically or is this a progressive tense in the passive voice accompanied by an adverbial dependent clause of concession?  Apparently, within the educational system of such students these matters pass as learning English.  So in that sense, I'm against 'exercises'!

In any case, the struggle for the learner is always making the conversion from 'computing' utterances (assembling them by applying grammatical rules) to generating meaningful utterances spontaneously.  The more role models the learners have, whether in terms of number of speakers they have contact with or in terms of the number of written and spoken resources they have available, the smoother the transition.  At the extreme, if the learner is thrown into a sink-or-swim situation -- immersion -- it may be possible to shortcut the 'computational' period considerably.  The final goal is the same in any case:  meaningful language that is automatically produced and instinctively felt without any further consciousness of or need for the 'computational' (grammatical) aspects which were so prominent and necessary in the learning stages.

In summary, I believe the author of the quote above is taking grammar to mean excessive preoccupation with terminology and exercises to mean exercises designed to learn the terminology of grammar.  Taken in this way, I must agree with the author.  Of course, it is possible to interpret those words differently, which is why the statement has generated so many comments.  I prefer to give the author the benefit of the doubt and say that he or she was merely describing an approach which concentrates more on the target language and less on the terminology.

CJ

  
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Kooyeen  #349726  Wed, 11 Apr 07 10:17 PM
Yeah, at this point I think we all agree, we are just saying the same thing from different points of view. Distinguishing "aquisition" from "learning" is a way to consider this question, like Jim did. In the end, we all need to study grammar because we are already grown-up learners, unforunately, and we can't rely on aquisition.

What I wanted to point out was this:
 CalifJim wrote:

In any case, the struggle for the learner is always making the conversion from 'computing' utterances (assembling them by applying grammatical rules) to generating meaningful utterances spontaneously.  The more role models the learners have, whether in terms of number of speakers they have contact with or in terms of the number of written and spoken resources they have available, the smoother the transition.  At the extreme, if the learner is thrown into a sink-or-swim situation -- immersion -- it may be possible to shortcut the 'computational' period considerably.

I noticed that the "conversion" you mention mainly comes from "active practicing", that is speaking and writing, rather than "passive practicing" (listening and reading). And a "sink-or-swim situation" is the most active kind of situation a learner can be in: it's either sink or swim, either using English or using English anyway, no way around.

  
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CalifJim  #349730  Wed, 11 Apr 07 10:30 PM
...mainly comes from "active practicing", that is speaking and writing,  ...


Yes.  I'm one of those who believe that saying -- I don't know who said it --

Take action first -- insight will follow.   Smile [:)]

CJ

  
Goodman  #349755  Wed, 11 Apr 07 11:34 PM

 

Hi CJ,

What an impressive thread you have posted.  You have slowly made me a fan of yours.Big Smile [:D]

This is an interesting topic because it sort of tied to the other discussion we had the other day when a few debated over whether a nonnative can learn to process thoughts and to think in another acquired language such as English.  I am a science buff and whenever I can, I spend my spare time watching “the Discovery Channel”. Sometime there are programs about human minds and brain capacities which I thought were very stimulating.  After all, our brain is the “CPU” which stores all the inputs we acquired and organized them in a way we can use.  To me, anything can be learned.

  
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CalifJim  #349772  Thu, 12 Apr 07 01:58 AM
Thanks for the kind words, Goodman.  Yes, I guess the brain is considered the last frontier of science, isn't it?  But can anything be learned, really?  I once heard that you can't teach a rat calculus!  Smile [:)]

CJ

  
Goodman  #349965  Thu, 12 Apr 07 04:48 PM

 CalifJim wrote:

But can anything be learned, really?  I once heard that you can't teach a rat calculus!  Smile [:)]

CJ

 

If we are still speaking in human terms, yes, everything can be learned. That said, not everyone possesses the capacity to be taught. 

A rat! Never crossed my mind… Smile [:)]

  
Anonymous  #398835  Tue, 31 Jul 07 02:29 PM
it is not
  
Feathers  #398893  Tue, 31 Jul 07 05:11 PM
Thanks, anon.  Without your post, I would have missed this thread.
 Goodman wrote:

Hi CJ,

What an impressive thread you have posted.  You have slowly made me a fan of yours.


Yep!

 CalifJim wrote:


In any case, the struggle for the learner is always making the conversion from 'computing' utterances (assembling them by applying grammatical rules) to generating meaningful utterances spontaneously.  The more role models the learners have, whether in terms of number of speakers they have contact with or in terms of the number of written and spoken resources they have available, the smoother the transition.  At the extreme, if the learner is thrown into a sink-or-swim situation -- immersion -- it may be possible to shortcut the 'computational' period considerably.  The final goal is the same in any case:  meaningful language that is automatically produced and instinctively felt without any further consciousness of or need for the 'computational' (grammatical) aspects which were so prominent and necessary in the learning stages.


How true. 

I'm reminded of Prof. Stern's comment (University of Connecticut), as an additional tip for us learners. 
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when people are really acclimating themselves with American English, I think one of the first things that makes native English speakers more comfortable with a non-native speaker is not necessarily even the pronunciation of the individual vowels and consonants, but whether the inflections are moving in the direction that the listeners are used to hearing. Whether the rhythm of the language - some languages that are in a totally different rhythm, and if a speaker of that accent simply starts to elongate the syllables and change the pitch some, then a native speaking listener is going to become much more comfortable with that speech pattern.
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