had have had

Share on Facebook

Firefly

#201483 Mon, 27 Feb 06 03:00 PM

OK - consider this sentence:
If I'd have had the money I would have bought it.

Here in the UK, that would be a perfectly reasonable sentence, and so far as I know, grammatically correct. "I'd" is short for "I had", so "I'd have had" expands to "I had have had". I've been hearing, using, and reading, this construction for decades, and no-one's questioned it until now.

Now an American tells me that "had have had" is wrong. If I had to guess, I'd guess that they were looking for "If I'd had" instead of "If I'd have had".

Google certainly confirms that I'm not alone in my use of "had have had". The question is, can this usage be backed up in any formal reference? Or is my American friend right, and I've been getting it wrong for nearly half a century?

Firefly

Joined on Mon, Feb 27 2006

New Member (04)

Constructions

Philip

#201517 Mon, 27 Feb 06 05:02 PM

Firefly wrote:
OK - consider this sentence:
If I'd have had the money I would have bought it.

Here in the UK, that would be a perfectly reasonable sentence, and so far as I know, grammatically correct. "I'd" is short for "I had", so "I'd have had" expands to "I had have had". I've been hearing, using, and reading, this construction for decades, and no-one's questioned it until now.

Now an American tells me that "had have had" is wrong. If I had to guess, I'd guess that they were looking for "If I'd had" instead of "If I'd have had".

Google certainly confirms that I'm not alone in my use of "had have had". The question is, can this usage be backed up in any formal reference? Or is my American friend right, and I've been getting it wrong for nearly half a century?

In my book, it's a case of "too much verb", probably stemming from a desire not to have two "hads" together. "If I had had" or "if I'd had" is the correct form. I'm not qualified to comment on how much the "too much" form is used on either side of the pond.

Philip

Joined on Thu, Jun 23 2005

USA Pacific Northwest (Seattle)

Veteran Member (6,181)

At reise er at leve! - H. C. Andersen

Constructions, Verbs

nona the brit

#201526 Mon, 27 Feb 06 05:42 PM

Spelling it out as had have had looks odd but when I think about it is normal use in the UK, albeit usually shortened to I'd have had.I agree that had had would work just as well. Perhaps it is just a British verbal quirk then?

The only time you would say it in full is if you wanted to really make a point by emphasising the first 'had'. If you HAD have had bubonic plague Jones you wouldn't be standing here in front of me now so no more silly excuses - where is your homework?!

nona the brit

Joined on Wed, Sep 22 2004

England

Veteran Member (11,347)

The name says it all.

Spelling

CalifJim

#201527 Mon, 27 Feb 06 05:43 PM

The 'd is for would, not for had.

If I would have had the money, I would have bought it.

The contracted form is usually said If I'd've had the money, .... Many people get a little confused and write "had" instead of "would" and/or "of" instead of "have", giving all sorts of strange combinations in written form: if I had of had, if I would of had, if I had have had, etc.

The construction, actually any construction with 'would' in a hypothetical if-clause, is considered non-standard. The recommended form is "If I had had" or, contracted, "If I'd had".

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,931)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Clauses, Constructions

CalifJim

#201533 Mon, 27 Feb 06 05:52 PM

Hmmm. Now that's a different take on it, Nona.
So you guys say "had've had" for "had had"? Now that is quirky! Smile [:)]

Aren't you just substituting 'had' for 'would' there in the first 'had'?
Do you guys also prefer 'had' in this one: I had rather... instead of I would rather ...???

CJ

CalifJim

nona the brit

#201558 Mon, 27 Feb 06 07:33 PM

We do say had had as well. Tongue Tied [:S] . confusing I know.

I guess it could be another 'had' or a 'would' depending on the rest of the sentence. I can't see my example working with would?

If you would have had bubonic plague...

I think that the 've contraction gets used a lot in the UK without any real thought about what it is actually short for, we just stick it in there anyway...

nona the brit

Contractions

nona the brit

#201560 Mon, 27 Feb 06 07:41 PM

Examples of had have had in UK useage - I've realised that the have is often shortened rather than the first had as well and it seems to be used in a negative situation. In the examples I found (and my example was as well without realising it) it always formed part of an 'if' phrase. It's a way of emphasising the 'if only' aspect.

if Harry Potter had've had that owl, the books would have been done a long time ago...

if only only only someone in the mid-80s had've had the vision to use Kalima for the film version

i wish i had've had a recorder

think the team could've gone further if they had've had proper, decent engines

if the Romans had've had cars, all roads would lead to Le Mans

if I had've had credit this morning, I'd have been "robbed"

I bought Firenza's 50 000k's and if I had've had correct camber etc I would have got 70 000k's easily

nona the brit

Negatives

CalifJim

#201702 Tue, 28 Feb 06 05:59 AM

OMG, OMG.

LOL. Reading all those had've had's got me to laughing. (Maybe that's not the reaction you expected?) To my American ear, they are actually funny sounding. My apologies, but they all sound as if spoken by some hillbilly hicks out in the boonies! (At least to me.) That is really amazing how different British and American usage are on this one! Smile [:)]