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Hadn't better and wouldn't rather

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Latest post Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:44 AM by norwolf. 9 replies.
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norwolf  +  958191 Sat, 31 Oct 09 04:18 PM
Hi, teachers.

Here go some questions:

#1 You hadn't better let Jody hear you going on like that.(COCA)

#2 I wouldn't rather have an apple.

 

In my opinion:

#1 should be:You had better not let Jody hear you going on like that.

#2 means: I refuse to have an apple instead of I am willing not to have an apple.

Am I right?

Could you possibly share your views?

 
norwolf
Joined on Tue, Nov 18 2008
Junior Member 71
CalifJim  +  958212 Sat, 31 Oct 09 04:50 PM
#1.  I'm inclined to agree with you.  I hearYou'd better not more often than You hadn't better.  Nevertheless, both are in use.


#2.  I can't agree with you on this one.  The meaning is I don't prefer to have an apple.  Like #1, this is a less common form of another structure with the negation placed differently:  I would rather not have an apple. = I prefer not to have an apple.   In neither case is the meaning related to refusal or unwillingness, though.


CJ
CalifJim
Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004
California
Veteran Member 22,475
"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
norwolf  +  958224 Sat, 31 Oct 09 05:15 PM
CalifJim
“#1.  I'm inclined to agree with you.  I hearYou'd better not more often than You hadn't better.  Nevertheless, both are in use.

 

You mean You hadn't better is a grammatically correct structure, even if it is rare?

 


#2.  I can't agree with you on this one.  The meaning is I don't prefer to have an apple.  Like #1, this is a less common form of another structure with the negation placed differently:  I would rather not have an apple. = I prefer not to have an apple.   In neither case is the meaning related to refusal or unwillingness, though.


CJ

”

 

Oh, dear CaliJim. There you are again, keeping helping me so much. Thank you!

Have a nice day!
norwolf
CalifJim  +  958252 Sat, 31 Oct 09 05:47 PM
norwolf
“You mean You hadn't better is a grammatically correct structure, even if it is rare?”
Yes.  That's what I mean! 


I think of 'rare' as about 5%, though.  The less common form is probably used 25% of the time.  (I'm guessing, of course!)  So I would rather say that the less used form is "less common", but not exactly "rare".


CJ
CalifJim
Avangi  +  958328 Sat, 31 Oct 09 07:46 PM
norwolf
“#2 I wouldn't rather have an apple.”
In my experience, this is an uncommon but humorous reply to a question, "Would you rather have a cup of soup or have an apple?" or, "Shall we make love, or would you rather have an apple?"

The expected reply would be in the affirmitive for one or the other.  But instead of affirming the one, the respondant negates the other.


I don't believe I've ever heard "I wouldn't rather have an apple" used to mean "I don't wish to have an apple."

In my opinion, the reply clearly presupposes a question offering the choice, and indicates a preference for the choice opposite from the one stated.
Avangi
Joined on Mon, Nov 19 2007
Veteran Member 8,211
". . . le plaisir delicieux et toujours nouveau d'une occupation inutile." - Henri de Regnier
norwolf  +  958793 Sun, 01 Nov 09 10:06 AM
I wouldn't rather have an apple.=I would do something else rather than have an apple.

If anything wrong, please correct it.
norwolf
norwolf  +  959019 Sun, 01 Nov 09 04:41 PM

#1, I'd rather not stay here alone.

#2, I wouldn't rather stay here alone.

 

Do they mean the same thing?
norwolf
Avangi  +  959193 Sun, 01 Nov 09 08:11 PM
norwolf
“

#1, I'd rather not stay here alone. = "I don't want to stay here alone."  (Another option need not be explicit.)

#2, I wouldn't rather stay here alone.  (The other option should be stated in prior context.)



Do they mean the same thing?  In my opinion, they do not. ”

Regarding "rather" and "prefer," we always seem to be talking about a choice between two options, or in some cases, among more than two.

The options may be listed, or stated; but in some cases only one option is stated.  (Of course, options may be stated in prior context.)  When two options are not stated, we assume the second option to be the opposite, or the negative of the one which is stated.

The controversy here seems to surround the way we express this negative/opposite choice.  Shall we say,
I do choose to not do X ?
I do not choose to do X ?
I do choose to do not X ?

You had better not do X
You had not better do X  (You hadn't better do X)
I would rather not have an apple
I would not rather have an apple (I wouldn't rather have an apple)
I do not prefer to have an apple (I don't prefer to have an apple)
I do not choose to have an apple
I do not wish to have an apple 
I wish not to have an apple
I prefer not to have an apple

I prefer to not have an apple

Anyway, I guess my point is that "rather" and "prefer" are different from all the others in this respect:
It's not idiomatic to place the "not" in front of them.  If you do, you're deliberately making a play on words.


If someone hands you an apple and says, "Here's an apple for you,"
It's natural to say:
I do not choose/wish to have an apple.

It's unnatural to say:
I do not prefer to have an apple.
I would not rather have an apple.

These are humorous ways of saying, "I opt for the other choice."  They may make an oblique comment on your feelings about apples:  "I really hate apples!"
Avangi
, , , , ,
CalifJim  +  959236 Sun, 01 Nov 09 09:12 PM
In #1, what is preferred is:  not staying here alone.

In #2, what is not preferred is: staying here alone.


So, strictly speaking, they don't mean the same thing.  The negation applies to a different part of the sentence.


The discussion of differences is rendered moot, however, by the fact (already mentioned by Avangi) that the second is not used to any appreciable degree, its chief use being to contrast with a previously stated situation, thus:


-- Would you rather stay in this haunted house with all of us?

-- Well, I certainly wouldn't rather stay here alone!


CJ
CalifJim
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