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CalifJim
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195307
Sat, 11 Feb 06 03:02 AM
| it seems that a few American English speakers do not distinguish between those uses |
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Actually, the subjective/objective distinction is of extremely little
importance to American speakers. Typically "must" is used as an
epistemic modal almost exclusively in ordinary conversation, and "have
to" as a deontic modal. That is, "must" is used to show logical
necessity; "have to" is used to show situational requirements
(objective, possibly?) or social obligation (subjective,
possibly?). The two are interchanged at times but these
interchanges are the variants, not the usual usage.
CJ
Joined on
Mon, Aug 2 2004
California
Veteran Member
22,428
"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
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milky
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195421
Sat, 11 Feb 06 10:26 AM
CalifJim wrote: | | it seems that a few American English speakers do not distinguish between those uses |
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Actually, the subjective/objective distinction is of extremely little importance to American speakers. Typically "must" is used as an epistemic modal almost exclusively in ordinary conversation, and "have to" as a deontic modal. That is, "must" is used to show logical necessity; "have to" is used to show situational requirements (objective, possibly?) or social obligation (subjective, possibly?). The two are interchanged at times but these interchanges are the variants, not the usual usage.
CJ
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How confusing. The conflation of two modals. Why don't you just get rid of one of them?
Joined on
Thu, Jan 15 2004
Senior Member
3,149
Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".
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MrPedantic
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195445
Sat, 11 Feb 06 12:29 PM
I must have been sleeptyping too, in my earlier comment about the lack of a past tense form with "must", since "must" is already a past tense form (of the obsolete "mote").
It's interesting that "I have got to" and "I must" both use past tense forms for a present tense meaning. At first, I wondered whether this was because the use of "must"/"have got to" implies an obligation that has already been imposed; but that doesn't necessarily explain e.g.
1. You must go directly to the headmaster's study...
where the obligation is imposed at the moment of utterance. But then, perhaps such an obligation would have to be based on some previous requirement, e.g. school rules.
"You have to go directly" does seem the weaker form; and it may well imply a subjective requirement on the speaker's part, rather than an objective requirement – though the latter is also possible; but then, we have the use of "had to" for both in the oblique form.
Though on reflection (and again rebutting my earlier post) this is also possible, if less common:
2. He said I must go directly...
It's a murky little modal.
MrP
Joined on
Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member
12,592
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
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CalifJim
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195792
Sun, 12 Feb 06 07:59 AM
| The conflation of two modals. Why don't you just get rid of one of them? |
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This is not the conflation of two modals. It is a distinction in
usage based on a different parameter from the one you may be used
to. That is, the distinction is made on the basis of whether the
meaning is epistemic or deontic, not whether it is subjective or
objective. Since a distinction still exists, I don't think we can
say that the two are conflated.
[And I take "... get rid of ..." as rhetorical. Obviously
language evolves historically. No one can arbitrarily add
or delete expressions from a language by fiat.]
CJ
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milky
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195834
Sun, 12 Feb 06 10:41 AM
CalifJim wrote: | | The conflation of two modals. Why don't you just get rid of one of them? |
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This is not the conflation of two modals. It is a distinction in usage based on a different parameter from the one you may be used to. That is, the distinction is made on the basis of whether the meaning is epistemic or deontic, not whether it is subjective or objective. Since a distinction still exists, I don't think we can say that the two are conflated.
CJ
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Note: epistemic modality is subjective and deontic modality is objective.
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CalifJim
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195996
Sun, 12 Feb 06 06:20 PM
| epistemic modality is subjective and deontic modality is objective. |
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I disagree completely. Objectivity has more to do with an
external viewpoint, subjectivity with an internal viewpoint. If
there is any possible and slight correlation between the
subjective/objective polarity and the epistemic/deontic polarity, I
would reverse your quote: Epistemic modality (having to do with
cold logic) is objective; deontic modality (having to do with our
interpersonal, social interactions, and the excercise of the will) is
subjective. But even this is suspect. I don't view subjective and objective
as exact enough terms to explain the use of modals to students.
They are too subject to a variety of interpretations, which, in my
experience, confuse students more than enlighten them.
CJ
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milky
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196278
Mon, 13 Feb 06 11:44 AM
CalifJim wrote: | | epistemic modality is subjective and deontic modality is objective. |
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I disagree completely. Objectivity has more to do with an external viewpoint, subjectivity with an internal viewpoint. If there is any possible and slight correlation between the subjective/objective polarity and the epistemic/deontic polarity, I would reverse your quote: Epistemic modality (having to do with cold logic) is objective; deontic modality (having to do with our interpersonal, social interactions, and the excercise of the will) is subjective. But even this is suspect. I don't view subjective and objective as exact enough terms to explain the use of modals to students. They are too subject to a variety of interpretations, which, in my experience, confuse students more than enlighten them.
CJ
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It gets a bit more complicated than that, I'm afraid. Epistemic modality can have a subjective (more prototypical) and an objective side.
Tell me, which of the following is epistemic, IYO? Which is subjective?
It may rain tomorrow. (Uttered by a weaterman)
It may rain tomorrow. (Uttered by a layman)
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milky
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196281
Mon, 13 Feb 06 11:57 AM
Milky wrote: |
CalifJim wrote: | | The conflation of two modals. Why don't you just get rid of one of them? |
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This is not the conflation of two modals. It is a distinction in usage based on a different parameter from the one you may be used to. That is, the distinction is made on the basis of whether the meaning is epistemic or deontic, not whether it is subjective or objective. Since a distinction still exists, I don't think we can say that the two are conflated.
CJ
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Note: epistemic modality is subjective and deontic modality is objective.
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Edited to:
Prototypically, epistemic modality is subjective and deontic modality is objective.
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CalifJim
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196768
Tue, 14 Feb 06 05:16 PM
Tell me, which of the following is epistemic, IYO? Which is subjective?
It may rain tomorrow. (Uttered by a weaterman)
It may rain tomorrow. (Uttered by a layman) |
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milky,
Both of these are epistemic. Both are objective, and vacuously true: It is possible that it will rain tomorrow.
No one's subjective feelings need be consulted on this. The rules
of logic alone render the statement true no matter who says it.
(The truth table for It may be the case that X is consistently true for all X.)
To be deontic, may would have to take on the meaning has permission to, as in: It has permission to rain tomorrow. Had you annotated the sentence with (Uttered by a witch-doctor), I might be tempted to consider a deontic reading! Otherwise, impossible!
_____
I'm surprised you chose may as the example. must
allows many more opportunities for exploring the possibility of a
combination of subjectivity with the epistemic usage of modals.
CJ
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