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Anonymous, 353 days ago
<<— not necessarily. Looking at my inbox now, for instance, I see that I have several posts to answer. It isn't a task; it isn't a burden; and I certainly don't feel it "incumbent" upon myself to reply.>>

"Not necessarily" allows "possibly", doesn't it?
Anonymous, 353 days ago
So for you, MrP, this is possible "I have several e-mails to answer, but I feel no obligation or pressure to do so.", is it?
Kooyeen  +  590031 Thu, 20 Nov 08 09:59 PM

Anonymous
“How does AmEng differentiate between objective and subjective obligation?”


Americans? My understanding is they don't, and don't seem to be too concerned about their inability to do so. Smile
And by the way I am afraid that distinction is not even universal in the UK. I remember reading some MrP's posts where he seemed to suggest it's not a distinction to take too strictly, if I am not mistaken. And then, considering the huge regional variations in the UK, and the influence of American English on the younger generation, I believe that distinction might have lost its importance in many dialects nowadays. But I am just guessing... I ain't know nothing about you blokes over there in the UK. Wink
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Anonymous, 352 days ago
<And by the way I am afraid that distinction is not even universal in the UK. I remember reading some MrP's posts where he seemed to suggest it's not a distinction to take too strictly, if I am not mistaken. >

I'm told that where it does occur in the UK, it is seen as an Americanism, i.e. as an import, or as the speech of young people.
Anonymous, 352 days ago
So, MrP, are obligative "must" and "have to" now on an equal footing in standard British English? Is "must" as common as "have to" when expressing subjective modality?
Anonymous, 352 days ago
How would American English and British English speakers interpret these?

a. My children must eat an apple after their meals.

 

b. My children have to eat an apple after their meals.

 

MrPedantic  +  590074 Thu, 20 Nov 08 11:48 PM

Anonymous
But that would be "necessity" and not "obligation", would it?

No; there is no necessity for me to write to Visser; and there is no external command or direction. I say "I have to" because I want to write to Visser.

Anonymous
“Not necessarily" allows "possibly", doesn't it?”

To falsify your hypothesis, we need only find one exception.

Anonymous
“So for you, MrP, this is possible "I have several e-mails to answer, but I feel no obligation or pressure to do so.", is it?”

Even better:

1. I have several emails to answer; but I feel no obligation, necessity, pressure, or constraint (external or internal) to do so.

(It's called "Friday afternoon in any workplace".)

Kooyeen
“And by the way I am afraid that distinction is not even universal in the UK.”

I'm not sure it's even a true distinction. Cf.

2. I must do my homework, before I go to bed.

— subjective: the speaker has imposed an obligation on himself.

3. I must do my homework before I go to bed.

— objective: the teacher has imposed the obligation on the schoolboy.

Every obligation is naturally a combination of subjective and objective requirements.

Anonymous
“I'm told that where it does occur in the UK, it is seen as an Americanism, i.e. as an import, or as the speech of young people.”

I've often heard people express views on split infinitives, terminal prepositions, "between you and I", etc. But I've never witnessed a "have to"/"must" debate, except on an ESL forum; and I've never seen this use of "have to" described as an "Americanism" – except by a certain lactescent poster here (who delights in vexing our US members, for reasons that have never been entirely clear to me).

MrP

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Anonymous, 352 days ago
<<No; there is no necessity for me to write to Visser; and there is no external command or direction. I say "I have to" because I want to write to Visser. >>

Ah, so you're using "have to" epistemically there, are you? I was focusing more on the deontic sense of have to/have + object + to + V". Isn't the epstemic sense of "have to" quite rare, or at least fairly new, in British English? I more expect to hear 'I say "I must" because I want to write to Visser' in that variety.

<<(It's called "Friday afternoon in any workplace".)>>

So when staff say "I have several emails to answer", you'd say that they are not necessarily expessing doentic modality, but may be expressing epistemic modality, would you?

<3. I must do my homework before I go to bed.

— : the teacher has imposed the obligation on the schoolboy. >

But that could only be derived from an extended context/cotext, right? e.g. "The teachers said/says I must do my homework before I go to bed."

<I've never witnessed a "have to"/"must" debate, except on an ESL forum; and I've never seen this use of "have to" described as an "Americanism" – except by...>

One example of other people who have interest in usage in varieties of English:
 
The epistemic meaning of logical necessity for have to is generally considered “rare” (Palmer 1979: 46; 1987: 128; Coates 1983: 57; Bybee and Pagliuca 1985: 67), an “Americanism”.


 THE ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF QUASIMODAL HAVE TO IN ENGLISH. By Laurel J. Brinton.

 

Anonymous, 352 days ago
Aside: Americans, does this comment vex you?

"The 'Americanization' of British English is suggested by the modal auxiliary profiles: here British English appears to follow American English, where the decline of modals is further advanced both in the 1961 and the 1991 data. In addition to American influence, another general trend of 'colloquialization' appears to explain some changes."

http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/ucrel/floblob.html
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