Kooyeen  +  373671 Fri, 01 Jun 07 05:34 PM Thank you very much for your replies. But I noticed some strange things:  CalifJim wrote: I don't make any change in the OO sound in you, you've, or you'd. Really? I thought "you" was not usually "yoo" (oo like in "too"). I also recently opened a thread about the pronunciation of "you" and "do". I think the vowel in "you" can vary from a schwa to "oo" as in "too", and since it can vary, it seems to me that is it halfway in between most of the times (halfway in between might be very similar to "oo" in "book", but it depends on your accent)  CalifJim wrote: In the case of the R's, the effect is not restricted to contractions like we're and you're:  beer, poor. I think it IS restricted to those cases. I pronounce "beer" the same way I pronounce "here", "near"... the vowel as in "beet", not as in "bit". That's probably a feature of your accent... or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Kooyeen Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005 Italy Senior Member 4,970 Parental Advisory / Explicit Posts Vowels, Accents, Pronunciation, Contractions

	Marvin A.  +  374463 Sun, 03 Jun 07 04:47 PM >> I think it IS restricted to those cases. I pronounce "beer" the same way I pronounce "here", "near"... the vowel as in "beet", not as in "bit". << Well, there is of course the tense-lax neutralization thing going on, but I would have to say, to my ears, when I pronounce it, it sounds just like the "i" in "bit", and not at all like the "ee" in "beet".  When I deliberately try to pronounce them with a very tense /i/, they sound rather odd.  Here, near, ear are the same as well.  Merry, Mary, and marry, all have an /E/ sound (occastionally shifted to [ æ ] ).  What do you have for them? Marvin A. Joined on Fri, Dec 8 2006 Regular Member 638 Vowels, Tenses

	Kooyeen  +  374479 Sun, 03 Jun 07 05:35 PM  Marvin A. wrote: Well, there is of course the tense-lax neutralization thing going on, but I would have to say, to my ears, when I pronounce it, it sounds just like the "i" in "bit", and not at all like the "ee" in "beet".  When I deliberately try to pronounce them with a very tense /i/, they sound rather odd.  Here, near, ear are the same as well.  Merry, Mary, and marry, all have an /E/ sound (occastionally shifted to [ æ ] ).  What do you have for them? Hmm, on second thought, maybe my "beer", "here", etc. is not like "beet", but it's very close anyway. And definitely not like "bit". If I say "beer" with the vowel in "bit", it sounds very similar to "bear". My "mary", "marry", "merry", "bear", "air", etc. all have an /e/ sound (IPA and XSAMPA), not /ɛ/ (IPA) - /E/ (XSAMPA). And since my /ɪ/ (IPA) - /I/ (XSAMPA) is very close to /e/, I don't pronounce "beer" as /bɪr/ (IPA) - /bIr/ (XSAMPA), but like /bir/ (IPA and XSAMPA). Kooyeen Vowels, Tenses

	Marvin A.  +  374569 Sun, 03 Jun 07 09:05 PM >> If I say "beer" with the vowel in "bit", it sounds very similar to "bear". << Really???   >> And since my /ɪ/ (IPA) - /I/ (XSAMPA) is very close to /e/ << Hmm.  The "in" in "pit" and the /e/ in "made" sound very different.  How can you pronounce them very "close"? Marvin A. Vowels

	Kooyeen  +  374631 Mon, 04 Jun 07 01:00 AM  Marvin A. wrote: >> If I say "beer" with the vowel in "bit", it sounds very similar to "bear". << Really???  Hmm, I think so! Maybe... Probably... I think I pronounce "beer" like this: http://cougar.eb.com/soundc11/b/beer0001.wav (from Merriam-Webster). The vowel is obviously different from the one in "bit" http://cougar.eb.com/soundc11/b/bit00001.wav , don't you think? >> And since my /ɪ/ (IPA) - /I/ (XSAMPA) is very close to /e/ << Hmm.  The "i" in "pit" and the /e/ in "made" sound very different.  How can you pronounce them very "close"? Well, those two vowels are very close to each other in the IPA chart of vowels, aren't they? And adding an /r/ sound complicates matters... Kooyeen Vowels

	Marvin A.  +  375131 Tue, 05 Jun 07 12:06 AM >> The vowel is obviously different from the one in "bit" http://cougar.eb.com/soundc11/b/bit00001.wav , don't you think? << Then I guess it is the tense-lax neutralization thing that occurs in my dialect.  I honestly can't hear the difference.  To me, they sound exactly identical (the vowel in beer and bit), and if I were to write it fauxnetically, I would probably write bir.  I think it is because we are native speakers of different languages, we actually have different distinctions that we can naturally hear.  In other words, you can hear a clear difference, I can't.  It's similar to people that have the pin-pen merger.  People with the merger cannot perceive *any* difference between the vowel sounds in "pin" and "pen", even though people that pronounce them differently insist that there is a clear difference.  Before /n/, /I/ and /E/ sound identical.  Without special training, people with the merger cannot even transcribe them differently.  I think it's the same with this.  When I say (or hear) "beer", whether you pronounce it [ bIr\ ] or [ bir\ ] , it sounds like [ bIr\ ] to me. >> Well, those two vowels are very close to each other in the IPA chart of vowels, aren't they? And adding an /r/ sound complicates matters... << Interesting.  To me, /I/ and /e/ are so different that there is no possibility of confusion.  I think this is similar to what I said about bir and beer.  In my dialect, /I/ and /e/ quite distinct, are as likely to be confused as /I/ and /u/. Marvin A. Vowels, Difference Between, Dialects, Tenses

	CalifJim  +  375176 Tue, 05 Jun 07 03:21 AM OK.  Now I'm all confused! Let me try these in SAMPA, but adding  i and u for 'half-tense' vowels. I'm leaving out the \ after all those r's. Here's (I think) how I pronounce these (if anyone even cares at this late date!). "we, we're, we'll, we've, we'd; beer, feel, fill, wheel, will" "you, you're, you'll, you've, you'd; poor, fool, full; fuel, Yule" "Do you?"  "You do?" "You do, too?" [wi, wir, wil, wiv, wid; bir, fil, fIl; wil, wIl] [ju, jur, jul, juv, jud; pur, ful, fUl; fjul, jul] [du ju] [ju du] [ju du tu] I think the half-tense cases can come out either tense or lax or in between in normal speech, and I think which comes out depends on context and speed.  Hard to say exactly.  The "i" in "mirror" for me can be anything from [ I ] to [ i ]., although it never seems to reach all the way to [ i ].  So maybe what I'm calling half-tense should really be called indeterminate with respect to tenseness. CJ CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,409 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Vowels, Tenses, Dates

	Marvin A.  +  375420 Tue, 05 Jun 07 04:56 PM I see you pronounce "you're", "we're" and you'll diferently than I do.  I normally pronounce them as [ jr\= ] and [ wr\ ] ( We're going to the store [ wr\= gowin t_hu D@ stOr\ ] ) and [ jol ] .  Also, the word "poor".  I remember being surprised when I read that some people don't have the pour-poor merger.  I have [ p_hOr\ ] for both of those.  I thought that it was "pour" that had the variation.  I was surprised that it was "poor", that could be pronounced like you pronounce it.  I also assumed that is was restricted to East coast dialects, and I was surprised to find that many Westerners and Midwesterners pronounce "poor" like that, as I've never heard that pronunciation before. >> I think the half-tense cases can come out either tense or lax or in between in normal speech, and I think which comes out depends on context and speed. << Yeah, I think you're right. Marvin A. Dialects, Pronunciation, Tenses

	CalifJim  +  375471 Tue, 05 Jun 07 07:06 PM I remember being surprised when I read that some people don't have the pour-poor merger.  I have [ p_hOr\ ] for both of those.  I thought that it was "pour" that had the variation. Well, what do you know! And I thought that everyone distinguished one from the other, but that some people reversed them. I have heard people say "poor, pour" as [pOr, pur].  And as [pur, pOr], as I do*.  I wasn't aware that anybody said both of them the same. (You learn something new every day.)  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some use [pur, pur]. *I'm not sure whether I say [pOr] or [por].  I have trouble hearing the difference before R's. CJ CalifJim