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Latest post Mon, Jan 19 2009 5:46 PM by CalifJim. 10 replies.
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HSS  +  641799 Wed, 14 Jan 09 01:47 AM

I unwittingly wrote a new post over my first through the edit function. I've just deleted the new message, and re-written my question as close to what I wrote initially as possible.

[1] All his results were checked to decide whether we will hire him or not.

Grammatically, doesn't the author have to supply the sentence with the hidden subject "we" in the form of "for us" because the subjects are different?

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

HSS
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Sendai, Japan
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cbsteh  +  641801 Wed, 14 Jan 09 01:55 AM
In your example, it is unimportant who checked the results, just that it was checked by an unidentified someone/group, so there is no need to supply a "we" or "us".

Chris

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CalifJim  +  641820 Wed, 14 Jan 09 02:18 AM

HSS
“Grammatically, doesn't the author have to supply the sentence with the hidden subject "we" in the form of "for us" because the subjects are different?”
No.  That 'rule' does not apply generally to all cases, but only to certain verbs.

I believe you are referring to something like this:  I waited to enter.  I waited for him to enter.

CJ
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California
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"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
HSS  +  641845 Wed, 14 Jan 09 02:43 AM

But do the readers see it was "we" who decided if we hired him or not, though?

Hiro

HSS
AlpheccaStars  +  641857 Wed, 14 Jan 09 03:02 AM
 Yes, it is clear from the sentence that "we" made a decision.
But it is not clear who checked the results. It could have been an external agency.
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HSS  +  646594 Sun, 18 Jan 09 03:18 AM

 

[1] All his results were checked to decide whether we will hire him or not.

CalifJim

HSS
“Grammatically, doesn't the author have to supply the sentence with the hidden subject "we" in the form of "for us" because the subjects are different?”
No.  That 'rule' does not apply generally to all cases, but only to certain verbs.

I believe you are referring to something like this:  I waited to enter.  I waited for him to enter.

CJ

 

No, I was referring more to the constructs of sentences. You would say something like:

[2-1] The monkey stood there to take a picture.

[2-2] The monkey stood there for us to take a picuture.

[3-1] We moved aside to squeeze through.

[3-2] We moved aside for him to squeeze through.

When you don't have "for somebody" before a to-infinitive, you take the subject of the infinitive to be the same as that of the main verb. In [2-1], the picture was taken by the monkey, and, in [2-2], the picture was taken by "us."

"All his results" can't have decided whether we will hire him or not. How would you tell the subject of a to-infinitive in a passive sentence like that?

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan
HSS
Grammar Geek  +  646610 Sun, 18 Jan 09 03:40 AM
HSS
“ How would you tell the subject of a to-infinitive in a passive sentence like that?”
 

I think you mean the agent,  not the subject. The grammatical subject is the results.

But anyway, the point of using the passive is when "who did it" is either unimportant, not known, or deliberately omitted. If you think that it's important to say who did it, then don't use the passive. WE checked his results so we could hire him.

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HSS  +  646673 Sun, 18 Jan 09 05:05 AM
Yes, you are right. I meant "the agents" of to-infinitivs used in passive-voice sentences. How could you tell what the agent is for "to decide"? Please suppose "who checked" is not important in this example sentence, but "who decided" is important.

Hiro

[On retrospect, I think I was right in the usage of "the subject of a to-infinitive" because I was saying it in terms of the structure of the sentence Smile Plus, I may not have had to mention "Please suppose ... is important" here in this query]

HSS
CalifJim  +  646866 Sun, 18 Jan 09 10:02 AM

HSS
“How would you tell the subject of a to-infinitive in a passive sentence like that?”
With infinitives of purpose, it seems to me that both the agent of the passive and the subject of the infinitive are an indeterminate "somebody".  The two somebodies are usually but not necessarily coreferential.

Soft music is played to relax the patient.
Prices were reduced to attract more customers.
New laws were passed this year to keep the streets safe.
This medication has been used to treat depression in young adults.
All his results were checked to decide whether we will hire him or not.
The data is being analyzed to determine whether the concentration of carbon dioxide is increasing.

Rough paraphrases:

Somebody plays soft music because somebody wants to relax the patient.
Somebody reduced prices because somebody wanted to attract more customers.
Somebody passed new laws this year because somebody wanted to keep the streets safe.
Somebody has used this medication because somebody wanted to treat depression in young adults.
Somebody checked all his results because somebody wanted to decide whether we will hire him or not.
Somebody is analyzing the data because somebody wants to determine whether the concentration of carbon dioxide is increasing.

The infinitive is adverbial, telling why the action of the main clause was done.  These can be rephrased in various ways, the most usual being "for the purpose of ---ing".

Soft music is played for the purpose of relaxing the patient.
Prices were reduced for the purpose of attracting more customers.
New laws were passed for the purpose of keeping the streets safe.
This medication has been used for the purpose of treating depression in young adults.
All his results were checked for the purpose of deciding whether we will hire him or not.
The data is being analyzed for the purpose of determining whether the concentration of carbon dioxide is increasing.

In a strange way, the entire main clause is the subject of the infinitive.  Or, more precisely, the statement of the belief that underlies the whole sentence has the entire main clause as the subject.

[--- play soft music] relax patient       (The playing of soft music relaxes the patient.)
[--- reduce prices] attract more customers  (The reduction of prices attracts more customers.)
[--- pass new laws] keep streets safe     (And so on.)
[--- use this medication] treat depression ...
[--- check his results] decide [we hire ...]
[--- analyze data] determine [ concentration ... increase]
____

I haven't figured out yet why this works differently for the monkey, where a possible paraphrase is "so that ... can/could".

The monkey stood there so that he could take a picture.


However, in this case, we definitely do not have

[monkey stands there] takes a picture.

CJ
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