Homosexual marriages- against the natures law?

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jsolano  #105128  Fri, 03 Jun 05 01:32 AM
(I don't want it to sound rough)

But, do they bother you? I don't thinks so. Therefore gays and lesbians can do whatever they want with their own lives. And there isn't any natural law agains that (I would check the opposite option nevertheless). The only one is what some people could have in their head. Feel free to say yes.
  
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Pyewacket  #118331  Thu, 14 Jul 05 04:53 PM

Clive [Clive Woodward - Mod] asked: What is "natures law"?

Can we define nature's law as "a harmonious, well-balanced, healthy community of animate an inanimate life forms. A holistic entity comprised of many small parts that is impossible to subdivide, but possible to view from different angles and from different "lenses". Lenses that help us to see different dimensions of the these holistic relationships."

What I mean by "lenses" are those filters which give us our point of view (ie: gender, culture, age, etc)

  
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Mike in Japan  #118437  Fri, 15 Jul 05 01:17 AM
Thanks for your input Pyewacket, but isn't that a definition of Nature (as opposed to Nature's Law)?
  
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Pyewacket  #118670  Sat, 16 Jul 05 03:45 AM

Hmmm, perhaps you are right, Mike. However, I think it is important that we understand what nature is so that we can define Nature’s Laws. If we know that nature consists of harmonious interconnected activity, then we can assume that Nature’s Laws would also have this quality. Natural Law is then “the way nature operates”, or “those operations that nature never violates”; such as gravity and a body in motion remains in motion. Humans don’t make them, but we observe them and categorize them. To look at Natural Law we must look at the big picture. We must look at the sexual behaviors of all life in order to proclaim homosexuality natural or unnatural.

Yet, it seems like this thread is focusing on only on sexual behaviors of humans. And if we are saying that it’s against NATURAL law we have to look at the entire animal population. Homosexuality occurs in a small percentage of the animal population (including humans), so to say homosexuality is not normal is the same thing as saying red heads are unnatural. (If ever you’ve dated a redhead, you may find that they are more dangerous than a homosexual (joke Wink [;)].).

In looking at sexual behavior in nature, we find many different sexual behaviors and sexual relations ranging from homosexuality to bisexuality. I’m not talking about whether these animals “prefer” to be homosexual. I wouldn’t want to project a human emotional quality onto an animal we can’t really understand. As I said before: we can only “observe” nature.

  • Bottlenose dolphins, for example, are not known to form heterosexual pair bonds. They do, however, form homosexual pair bonds, including sex, that last for life.
  • It’s not uncommon for bison, gazelles, antelope, grouse and Guinean cocks to form same sex pair bonds.
  • Walruses form homosexual pair bonds and have sex with each other outside of the breeding season. During normal breeding season they return to a heterosexual pattern.
  • Male ostriches, rather than courting females, will court other males
  • Male flamingos mate together, build nests and raise chicks.
  • Japanese macaques and certain chimps also display homosexual acts.
  • Dogs also exhibit homosexual behavior, as do certain breeds of gulls

I could list a slew of other animals, but I think you get the point.

You can’t make a natural law argument against homosexuality because it happens in nature. If one wants to argue against it, then put it under a different category.

 

 

 

 

  
MrPedantic  #118775  Sat, 16 Jul 05 01:59 PM

...Male flamingos mate together, build nests and raise chicks...

Hello Pyewacket

Just to clarify: do you happen to know whether they 'adopt' (or perhaps abduct) the chicks?

MrP

  
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Dillleilomo2005  #118794  Sat, 16 Jul 05 03:23 PM

 Clive Woodward wrote:
In conventional debates the topic of the debate is defined. So far the topic of this debate has not been defined. Would anyone like to take a stab at it?
What is `natures law` for example?

Homosexual marriages- against the natures law?

Homosexual marriages- that means people marry with their same sex lovers such as men with men,women with women

Natures law-that can be definited as a rule,which claims people should give births to babies such as man with woman

  
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Pyewacket  #118847  Sat, 16 Jul 05 06:32 PM
 Dillleilomo2005 wrote:
Natures law-that can be definited as a rule,which claims people should give births to babies such as man with woman

If you read my last thread, you’d see that my definition suggestion for Nature’s Laws = the way nature operates. Those operations that nature never violates. Laws that are observed, not made by humans. Natural law cannot "make claims". It simply "is". Also, it cannot simply refer to what "people" do. Natural law has been around far longer than even the human species. It must include all species.

However, in nature sexual behavior occurs for a variety of different reasons, not just for procreation (as you suggest). For example, some species use it to establish dominance within a hierarchy. Female wolves, for example, will mount males in the pack to display their dominance/leadership. Male chimps will mount every member of the band to show for the same reason. These behaviors are universal within the species and have nothing to do with procreation.

Further, if you are suggesting that homosexuality (and homosexual marriage) violates natural law (which I’ve demonstrated that it doesn’t) you mean to suggest that it’s somehow “evil or bad”. You might consider that Nature routinely expresses natural law through infanticide, cannibalism, and incest -- and all kinds of heinous acts that human’s don’t tolerate, so a “Natual Law” argument against homosexuality (or homosexual marriage) is groundless and pointless.

 Dillleilomo2005 wrote:
Homosexual marriages- that means people marry with their same sex lovers such as men with men,women with women

Marriage is a human construct. It can’t be considered natural law. Pair bonding occurs. Sex occurs. Therefore, Homosexuality = pair bonding and sex occuring between two or more members of the same sex in the same species.

  
Pyewacket  #118852  Sat, 16 Jul 05 06:46 PM

 MrPedantic wrote:
Just to clarify: do you happen to know whether they 'adopt' (or perhaps abduct) the chicks?

Obviously they would have to since they can't lay eggs on their own. However, they can sucessfully raise a baby.

For example: "In 1994, two male flamingos in the Rotterdam Zoo in the Netherlands got the nesting urge and set up a same-sex co-habitation. After the two repeatedly sought to steal eggs from female flamingos to hatch them as their own, the zookeepers decided to provide them with a fertilized egg. The proud parents successfully hatched their own little chick, and remained faithfully by the side of the baby flamingo for a while. However, six months later, one of the two gay birds turned straight and found a female mate." Out in All Directions: The Almanac of Gay and *** America

  
MrPedantic  #118912  Sun, 17 Jul 05 12:04 AM
 Pyewacket wrote:

 MrPedantic wrote:
Just to clarify: do you happen to know whether they 'adopt' (or perhaps abduct) the chicks?

Obviously...

Mmm...I'm afraid that's what happens when you've spent a few months on this forum. You become reluctant even to dismiss the possibility that a male flamingo might, somehow, in exceptional circumstances, manage to produce an egg...

MrP

  
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