Homosexual marriages- against the natures law?

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chris  #27252  Wed, 07 Apr 04 02:28 PM
Rommie,

Yes, yes, yes, technically you are right. You are going to all this effort to define how a debate should work. What you fail to see is that most users here do not have a perfect command of the English language.

If you look carefully at all of deepa's posts under this thread at no stage does she mention 'nature's law' apart from in the title. Can't you see that she must have used this to provoke some sort of discussion. What I'm trying to say is that at no stage did she mean for the debate to be about 'nature's law' however she wanted people's opinions about whether homosexual marriages are fine or not. I'm sure deep down you knew that and that's why I'm getting a little upset here.

Rommie, I'm sorry to be so blunt here however I think you need to lighten up a little. The purpose of this site is to encourage people who might not use English to actually use it. Can't we debate topics rather than debate how a debate should work?
  
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rommie  #27261  Wed, 07 Apr 04 06:36 PM
Fair enough. I had obviously misconstrued the concept of "Debating society". I shall exit this thread gracefully, hopefully with no hard feelings. Smile [:)]

Rommie
  
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bratannia  #27490  Fri, 09 Apr 04 09:27 PM
In case anyone's still curious, "nature's law" is an ancient concept based on the idea that, just as things like stars and tides move in an orderly way reflecting some kind of divine logic behind the world, so must there be some sort of an intrinsic divine law for human behaviour. For people who are not religious, this translates as just some built-in kind of universal order that will make people behave optimally.

The concept was first applied to homosexuality by St. Paul in the Christian book called Letter to the Romans, when he referred to 'men turning to men instead of women' as "para physin," that is, against nature. He also referred to other things, such as men wearing their hair long, as para physin. You can recognized that Greek word physin as being connected to the English word physics, which shows you that the concept of nature used then had nothing in particular to do with greenery, national parks and cute wild animals. It's often said that Paul was influenced by Plato's thought, since Paul was an educated fellow in a Greek-speaking area of the Roman Empire, and Plato had been very big on the idea of an ideal sphere of worldly existence, including an ideal nature of everything. This is possible, but in the case of Paul's speech on same-sex acts, he may also have been trying to render the Hebrew word "to'evah," "an abomination" (King James Bible) into some sort of an understandable Greek expression. This word is used to characterize "men lying with each other in the same way as with a woman" in the Jewish Torah (Christian old testament book of Leviticus). It is notoriously difficult to translate adequately.

Here are my views on all this (or at least some of "this"). If I can restrict my comments to men, I think there are two different situations in which men get together for sex. One of them is the situation in which both of the men involved are gay, that is, predominantly sexually attracted and also likely romantically attracted to men. This is an intrinsic sexual orientation, not some sort of adopted habit, fashion statement or philosophical position (I know because I've been there), so in this case the men are surely following the nature that "nature" or God gave them. The other situation is when two men get together for sex and one or both of them is heterosexual. This sounds like it shouldn't happen, but there are a couple of situations where it is common enough. The most famous is in prison, where lots of tough straight men deprived of women for a long time start thinking that some of the other guys will do as substitutes, especially if they're a bit on the young and cute side. I call this substitute use of men "surrogacy." The other situation for surrogacy is when similar things happen to randy and deprived guys anywhere else, as happens mainly in places and societies where premarital or casual sex with women is hard to come by (no pun intended). The old joke, "a place where men are men and sheep are nervous" could be rewritten to say "a place where men are men and sheep AND other men are nervous." Most men will only take the active role in this game but there are always some who, for one reason or another (maybe they're gay, maybe they just got talked or frightened into it) will take the "passive role," if you know what I mean. This is no longer so common in the English-speaking society I grew up in, but in the days when it was more common, the English word for such a fellow was a catamite. Most societies have such a word. In Morocco, for example, the word "zamel" is used. In St. Paul, the word was "malakos" ("weak one"). It's very clear that St. Paul was familiar with such behaviour.

Surrogacy was very common in various societies in ancient times, and in fact also had a third forum of activity, ritual temple prostitution in the ancient polytheistic religions. The apparent biblical/torah/quranic condemnations of homosexual acts, and the idea that homosexuality is against nature, really relate to surrogacy -- this is why the concept of turning away from women, or doing it with a man as if with a woman, are mentioned in the scriptural passages on this topic. (The islamic equivalent is committing an act of 'zina,' or extra-marital sex.) Here we are talking about people who easily could and ideally should be heterosexual, and yet they are "doing it" with each other, just as pure cold usage or "getting off." You can see any saint worth his salt would have found this pretty crazy -- normal, woman-loving guys turning off their self-control and just doing it with each other as an alternative to bothering the farm animals. Very unnatural. Of course, if this kind of sexual activity is also mixed with violence and the man being used is really a rape victim, as in American prison movies (or in the quranic and possibly also the biblical story of Sodom), then so much the more unnatural. Even I would call that unnatural, and (as people always say in this situation) I'm no saint.

Leaving the violent people aside and returning to the ordinary, non-violent ones, you could easily say that what those guys should really do, especially in the kinds of traditional societies where surrogacy becomes an active option, is to toughen up for a couple of years, restrain themselves, and then get married and put all that energy in the right place. And of course, stay out of prison. That's well and good and "kata physin" (in harmony with nature).

On the other hand, if gay men get married to women, that's against their nature. AND -- the important thing that conservative people never recognize on this topic -- it's also deeply against the nature of heterosexual marriage if one of the partners lacks sexual interest in members of the opposite sex. Every year even now, all over the world, many women get stuck with marrying guys who, however genuinely friendly they may be, are faking heterosexual interest just because, in their society or family, it's difficult or impossible to deal with the reality of being gay. The whole system of beliefs that bamboozles people into these fake marriages is one of the most unnatural mind-viruses that humans ever inflicted upon themselves.

The dread that letting gay men be gay will cause humanity to give up heterosexuality completely and stop making babies is the fundamental "sneeze" that an infection by this virus causes in the sufferer. This scary statement propagates the belief to new sufferers, who then also nervously want to get EVERYONE making babies, whether or not they have any natural inclination to do this. Meanwhile the planet practically implodes from the weight of all the 'babies' living on it.

Gay marriages as a social phenomenon are pretty benign. They are really a development reflecting the value placed on relationships as opposed to "just sex." As such, they are a sort of counter-revolution against the Western "sexual revolution" dogma of the sixties and seventies, in which everyone was supposed to be a swinger and not limit themselves to one life-long partner. One could be gay and just do one-night stands or brief affairs, but if you value relationships or, at least, your own relationship, then you might wish to get married, especially when this confers suitable and necessary partner privileges like hospital visiting rights in times of emergency. Relationships are very conspicuous no matter what you do and so, unlike sex (for most people), are part of the public domain. People are relentlessly asked about their relationship status ("are you married?"), so they might as well be able to give a good and true answer.

No one knows just why there are sexual orientations such that some people are gay, a few bi, and most heterosexual. It's some sort of an interaction between our animal sexual imprinting system (that also leads to eccentric imprints like the lifelong "shoe fetish" etc. that some people have) and our rapidly evolved (a few million years) capacity for higher intelligence. Whether there has been any Darwinian natural selection for it, as sociobiologists have claimed, is very hard to say. Given that it's real, though, for gay men to act in keeping with their natures and not get involved in tragic marital mistakes with innocent heterosexual women is very much "kata physin," in harmony with nature.

My fundamental principle is this: "every woman willingly getting involved in a heterosexual marriage deserves to have a truly heterosexual man as her spouse." (I am absolutely on her side.) The corollary is "any marriage a gay man gets involved in should not be to a woman," and then by extension, "if a gay man is to get married at all, it should be to another gay man."

Deepa, if you find this reasoning to be against nature's law, let us know.



  
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Jackisgreat  #28862  Fri, 30 Apr 04 03:28 AM
Whether its supported by the masses or not, its not up to them. This is just like how they used to keep black people from marrying white people, its wrong to stop gay marriage, its an indefendable position to be anti gay marriage. Read, I'll prove it

Anti gay marriage theories that I can refute:


1.Relgion is against Gay people:

This all stems from a mistranslated verse in the Bible, people think its a man shall no lay in bed with another man, but it is actually a man shall not lay in someone elses bed, bed being a masculine noun (which caused the confusion and rooted it becoming a man shall not lay with other men). And as for the whole "god smote the sodomites" thing, thats still retarded. God smites everything, remember that whole "great flood that washed away the sinners"? Yeah, indefendable.

2.The majority belief is that gay marriage is wrong

Irrelevant, its not up to the majority, its up to gay people. If they want to get married, who cares.

3. Its defiles the sanctity of marriage

The sanctity of marriage? There is a t.v show in America called Joe Millionaire, tis a game show where you compete to marry this redneck. Does that not defile its sanctity? Do you see masses of people picketing against joe millionaire? No, you dont. The only reason they picket against gay people is because theyre homophobes.
(reminder: they have drive in wedding chapels in vegas, any picket lines there? No)

4. Gay marriages will ruin society (the Pat Robertson theory)

This is the worst one. This one insinuates that people will start becoming gay just because marriages are legal. It is retarded, never try to back this theory up, its impossible.

Ok, youve heard me refute your anti gay marriage front, go ahead, challenge me, tell me I'm wrong.
  
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bratannia  #28962  Sun, 02 May 04 07:38 PM
If you've seen my other message in this forum, you'll know that I'm not here to argue against you! (Where our all the controversial people these days?) But I'm interested in that point about a mistranslation involving "someone else's bed" -- that's a new one on me. Any idea what book or article discussed it?

I think it's a very good point you make about interracial marriage -- historically, many people claimed to experience an instinctive disgust to this type of relationship, too. Now it's pretty much accepted everywhere that their self-conceived instinct was just learned racism. And nobody has ever proposed that acceptance of interracial marriages means that EVERYONE has to marry interracially.

I am glad that society grew up on one topic, anyways.
  
Clive Woodward  #29018  Tue, 04 May 04 07:52 AM
Bratania,
It is 'Controversial People's Holiday Week' here now.
Back in two days.
Will bring happy snaps.
Love to all
  
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Guest  #35275  Thu, 01 Jul 04 02:14 PM
"FACT - the vast majority of people are disgusted by homosexuality. Argue if you so will, but this is an inescapable truth. "

I am writing a report at the moment about same sex marriages. I was wondering if you would mind if i use the above quote in my report. it is not going to be published just handed in to the teacher and returned. i can give credits to you as a source if you wish.

thanks


  
Conus Lotus  #37340  Wed, 14 Jul 04 08:16 AM
Sure, go right ahead.
You can credit if you like, but it's not neccessary.
  
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Oswy  #44618  Tue, 07 Sep 04 02:41 PM
deepa,

I support same-sex marriage rights.

It is an error, in my view, to make reference to "nature" when seeking to determine the morality of homosexuality. The error I refer to has a specific term, it is the "naturalistic fallacy" and is widely known in discussions of philosophy. What it means is that we can't look at nature to tell us what is right and wrong for us humans to do - for example, male lions kill and eat the young cubs when they take over a new pride, this is to bring the females into heat so they can father their own offspring. Should I argue that it's ok for you to kill the children of your new wife because they have been fathered by a previous husband? That would seem absurd. We can't look to nature, we must look to ourselves.

Homosexuality has always existed in human society and always will. People who don't like same-sex marriages don't have to have a same-sex marriage.

Oswy.


  
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