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David    608221 Wed, 04 Feb 04 09:38 AM

In article
"It's an interesting reflection that when "thou/thee/thy" fell out of use as the familiar form of address, and everyone was ... (with some modern exceptions, as Matthew says) was still addressed by the familiar rather than the polite form was God."

Isn't that a very good example of superstition?

http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/09-0.htm
...the few remaining haddocks were indistinguishable from halibut.
Matthew Huntbach    608231 Wed, 04 Feb 04 09:48 AM

"I'm not sure this is actually directly an issue of ... grammatically correct English but never say "please" and "thank you"."

"But would it still be proper English? I think that there is more to speaking a language than just the vocabulary and grammar. The way the language is commonly used is equally important (and probably the most difficult to learn)."
I don't speak German, but I can manage a little French, so I'll assume for the sake of argument that the same applies in both. When I'm speaking French, I don't notice that I'm saying "S'il vous plait" and "Merci" any less than I say "Please" and "Thank you" in English. It may be that I do so more often than a native French speaker would, and therefore appear excessively polite, but it's not something I was aware of until you brought it up.
However, I can't speak French without being aware of the "tu/vous" issue, so it seems to me this is far more central to the French language, and so the fact that French has this special polite form which you have to use in many circumstances suggests to me that it is a more polite language than English.
"Probably a good idea. Although the "taboo" words have lost ... one would not use in a polite or formal context."

"I still don't see the point in doing this. What is the advantage?"

I work as a university lecturer, and many of the students I teach have come from overseas and speak English as a second language. I've often seen these students using inappropriate colloquialisms in what is meant to be formal written English. The reason is they haven't had enough experience to realise that these forms that they have heard spoken just don't look right when put in a piece of formal documentation. For example, they may have heard "gonna" used to form the future tense in spoken English or in pop song lyrics, and from that may assume it is the standard way to form the future tense. So occasionally I see it used in their exam scripts and project documentation. It looks bad an unprofessional, and would certainly hold them back if they were to do that when in employment.
Exactly the same might apply to the "four letter" taboo words. Someone who hears them used casually in normal conversation, which in many contexts isn't uncommon in England, might go on to use them in contexts where it would be considered rude or unprofessional.
"Don't other language have similar taboo words, usually conneted with sexual or excretory functions?"

"There are taboo words, but IMHO they are not as taboo as here. I'm always surprised when I hear a (BBC) radio presenter apologising for bad language - people would use much worse words than f*** or c*** in German without apologising, even during day-time."

English, unlike German, has developed a vocabulary of Latin-derived words, which often parallel existing Germanic-derived words. In some cases the Latin derived word is the one used in formal contexts. I guess that as German did not develop this parallel vocabulary, the Germanic derived word remains used throughout.
"These 'taboo' words are something weird for a foreigner as there is no cultural background telling that these words are ... said group made me very conscious of this kind of language, so I think my language shouldn't be too bad."

The idea of regarding these words as completely unpronounceable is now regarded as somewhat old-fashioned. There was once a time when men might use them in conversation between themselves but regard it as bad to use them in a woman's presence. That no longer seems to be the case.
""Thou" or related second person singular forms survives in some dialects of English."

"In which dialects?"

Yorkshire in particular is known as a place where "thee", "thou" and "thy" (all sometimes pronounced or written "tha") survive in the everyday speech of ordinary people, and in some other northern parts. It also survived in some south-west dialects such as Somerset, although these have largely died out.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach    608232 Wed, 04 Feb 04 09:58 AM

"Thanks - but do you know why the 'thou' etc disappeared?"

"No. I don't know the history or reasons for the disappearnce of 'thou'. Perhaps someone else can help."

Although it's something that's argued about, there is some evidence that it really was because of excessive politeness. That is, English had the usage of other European languages where the second person plural form became used when adressing singular people politely. But there were more and more circumstances in which it became considered correct to use the polite plural form, until the point was reached when it became universal. The survival of "thee" and "thou" in Yorkshire is considered part of the Yorkshireman's bluntness, so perhaps the urge to be polite was more strongly resisted there than elsewhere.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach    608245 Wed, 04 Feb 04 10:12 AM

, Mike Stevens
"It's an interesting reflection that when "thou/thee/thy" fell out of ... by the familiar rather than the polite form was God."

"Isn't that a very good example of superstition?"

No. It's just a linguistic convention. I don't think it was ever considered somehow bad or unlucky to address God in the second person plural, it was just not done as the convention. So far as I am aware, in languages like French where the familiar/politesingular/plural division in the second person applies, God is addressed in the familiar second person singular, and not the polite second person plural.

An additional factor may come from the King James Bible, which was until recently the standard Bible used in England. In order to translate accurately from the Latin (where there doesn't seem to have been a polite usage of the second person plural to address singular people), the "thou/thee/thy" form was always used when the Latin had the second person singular - this was done even though at the time of the translation the second person singular form was already dropping out of common usage at least in south-eastern English. So as time went on, people's familiarity with "thou/thee/thy" would have been largely through seeing it in Biblical texts. Thus grew the notion that it was a special form of language to be used for religious purposes.

Matthew Huntbach
Peter Duncanson    608246 Wed, 04 Feb 04 12:09 PM

"In article"

, Mike Stevens
"Isn't that a very good example of superstition?"

"No. It's just a linguistic convention. I don't think it was ever considered somehow bad or unlucky to address God ... Biblical texts. Thus grew the notion that it was a special form of language to be used for religious purposes."

Yes.
The Christian Bible records Jesus instructing his disciples how to pray. The King James Bible has this in English as:

(9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
(10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. (13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For some Christians whose Christianity is based on the King James Bible the use of "thou/thee/thy" is close to being a Godly requirement.

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)
Matthew Huntbach    608259 Wed, 04 Feb 04 02:30 PM

"(9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy ... but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
My understanding is that the last part of verse 13 "For thine ..." is not properly part of the Bible, and that is why it does not occur in the Roman Catholic Pater Noster. However, the form with the use of "thy" is so engrained in English usage that it is used in the modern English Roman Catholic mass, even though God is addressed as "you" everywhere else in the mass. E.g. in the Agnus Dei following, it's "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world" (the older form was "Lamb of God who takest away the sins of the world" which is a very sneaky form of the second person singular).
However, RCs use "Our father who art ..." (not the more archaic "which art") and "trespasses" rather than "debts", and while "For thine is ..." *does* now appear in the mass as a sort of ecumenical gesture, it is separated from "Deliver us from evil" by some text spoken by the priest alone.
Matthew Huntbach
David    608260 Wed, 04 Feb 04 04:16 PM

, Mike
"No. It's just a linguistic convention. I don't think it ... special form of language to be used for religious purposes."

"Yes. The Christian Bible records Jesus instructing his disciples how to pray. The King James Bible has this in English ... whose Christianity is based on the King James Bible the use of "thou/thee/thy" is close to being a Godly requirement."

Which is precisely my point about it being superstition. Nothing to do with "luck" but a hangover of older practice.

http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/14-0.htm
"Note that one night too, the three blutwursts for Lohengrin's five very sick swans even got ate by nine. That's ten incidents!"
David    608268 Wed, 04 Feb 04 04:19 PM

In article

,
"In which dialects?"

"Yorkshire in particular is known as a place where "thee", "thou" and "thy" (all sometimes pronounced or written "tha") survive ... some other northern parts. It also survived in some south-west dialects such as Somerset, although these have largely died out."

And as a clue for when to use 'thou': "Thee tha me when Ah tha thee."

http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/yds/5sb-0.htm
The Yorkshire Dialect Society: Summer Bulletin
Matthew Huntbach    608269 Wed, 04 Feb 04 04:47 PM

,
"Yorkshire in particular is known as a place where "thee", ... written "tha") survive in the everyday speech of ordinary people,"

"And as a clue for when to use 'thou': "Thee tha me when Ah tha thee.""

An excellent indication that Yorkshire retains the same usage of second person singular only when being familiar as does French and German.

Matthew Huntbach
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