MrPedantic  +  98748 Thu, 12 May 05 11:27 PM Yes, that would work: on January 1st, 2000, a friend of yours might have said, 'have you seen Paco this millennium?'; and it would have been both humorous and idiomatic. (I suppose this thread will be spammed by the 'The millennium started in 2001!' brigade now...) MrP MrPedantic Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004 Veteran Member 12,592 ...opella forensis / adducit febris...

	khoff  +  98761 Fri, 13 May 05 12:32 AM Mr.P. - Before this thread, would you have thought there could be a sentence that would be grammatically correct ONLY if spoken in the morning? Well, here it is - as you have already pointed out, you can correctly say "Have you seen him this morning" only if it's still morning. If you say it in the afternoon, it's ungrammatical! So, getting back to Temico's post questioning the difference between "Have you seen my pencil this morning?" and "Have you seen my pencil yesterday?" -- You can say "have you seen my pencil this morning?" because you can ask the question WHILE IT'S STILL THIS MORNING, but unless you have a time machine, you can't ask "Have you seen my pencil yesterday?" while it's still yesterday. By the way, there was a Time Traveller's Convention last week at M.I.T. -- you can still go, if you qualify! I love this board. -khoff khoff Joined on Sun, Mar 6 2005 Senior Member 3,272 Native speaker of American English (but not a grammar expert) Difference Between

	MrPedantic  +  98765 Fri, 13 May 05 12:44 AM ...a sentence that would be grammatically correct ONLY if spoken in the morning?... Grammar with a 'use by' date... MrP MrPedantic Grammar, Dates

	abbie1948  +  98785 Fri, 13 May 05 01:33 AM when translated into foreign(not related to Latin) languages, "Did you see..." and "Have you seen...." are EXACTLY the same. Indeed, temcio. However, that is one of the mysteries of learning a foreign language - it is different from your native language! Anybody can TRUTHFULLY answer, "No, I have not." even if s/he has seen Tom pass by ONE MINUTE/SECOND ago!! Of course they can. But they can't say "I haven't seen Tom pass by yesterday It would have to be "I didn't see Tom .... yesterday" abbie1948 Joined on Thu, Mar 24 2005 England Senior Member 2,657 Hope that helps. Abbie

	CalifJim  +  98821 Fri, 13 May 05 03:42 AM Very true, Paco. The simplest and most consistent rule of all with respect to the choice between simple present and present perfect is: If a specific time in the past is mentioned, you cannot use the present perfect tense. CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,426 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Tenses, Present Perfect, Simple Present

	just the trout  +  98867 Fri, 13 May 05 08:05 AM Michael Swan - Practical English Usage 419-3 Grammars usually say that the present perfect cannot be used together with expressions of finished time. ... In fact, such structures are unusual but not impossible (though learners should avoid them). ================== CGEL: Past time adjuncts in experential perfects This use of the present perfect allows for the inclusion, under restrictive conditions, of a past time adjunct: [13] i. a. He has got up at five o'clock. b. He got up at five o'clock. ii. a. We've already discussed this yesterday. b. We discussed this yesterday. ============== JTT: In the newspaper, just a few weeks ago, Tony Blair, in reference to the WMDs stated, "I've already discussed that last year." ENLs NORMALLY, ALMOST NEVER use the present perfect with past time adjuncts. There are a few exceptions as noted by Swan and the CGEL. just the trout Joined on Mon, May 2 2005 New Member 14 Adjuncts, Present Perfect

	MrPedantic  +  98885 Fri, 13 May 05 09:11 AM I've never seen Tony Blair cited as an authority for accurate linguistic usage before... The next thing we know, grammarians will be quoting his sidekick John Prescott. MrP PS For the benefit of non-UK members: Prescott's grammar = (Bush + Quayle)². MrPedantic Grammar

	Roro  +  98898 Fri, 13 May 05 10:28 AM Please let me cut in again! Just to cite a data. McCoard(1978:135) gives a list of adverbials he finds to belong in each of these following three classes: #1. Occur with simple past but not with perfect: long ago, five years ago, once(=formerly), the other day, those days, last night, in 1990, at 3:00, after the war, no longer. #2. Occur with either simple past or with perfect: long since, in the past, once(=one time), today, in my life, for three years, recently, just now, often, always, never, already, before. #3. Occur with perfect but not with simple past: at present, up till now, so far, as yet, during these last five years, herewith, lately, since the war, before now, by now. I found it in Dowty1991:341. Is this list reliable...? Anyway, this thread is interesting. I'm all ears. Roro Joined on Mon, Apr 11 2005 Regular Member 581 Simple Past