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Kooyeen

#476185 Tue, 12 Feb 08 07:08 PM

Hi Tanit,
yes, sentences like "You like her more than me" can be ambiguous, but remember that no one ever says such sentences out of the blue, so there's always a context. Which meaning is intended depends on whatever comes before, the tone of voice, etc.
As for using subject pronouns, I would never say "He's taller than I" or "I like Amanda more than he", and I believe practically no native speaker (American, at least) would ever say such sentences. So it doesn't matter if some prescriptive grammarian invented some weird rule... if it's not said, it's odd, and if it's odd you might well say it's even wrong. The only exception is when "I" is used together with something else, like in "you and I". So "He is smarter than you and I" is actually in use in informal English, and it seems very common among people aged under 30. :)

Kooyeen

Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005

Italy

Senior Member (3,973)

If you don't have a sense of humor already, it's about time you buy one.

Nouns, Pronouns

Kooyeen

#476187 Tue, 12 Feb 08 07:16 PM

Yankee
Hi Kooyeen

As regards the specific sentences in this post, what you see as being grammatically correct will not be seen as being grammatically correct by everyone in all contexts. That's why I advised avoiding the problem in formal written English. Sentences 1b-4b are sentences that hard-core prescriptivists as well as enthusiastic descriptivists can agree on.

Yeah, you are in the ESL field, so you must know better than me... uh, I meant, better than I Wink

how many hard-core prescriptivists are in that field. Unfortunately, those are the ones that make the kinds of tests that always confuse learners. And that makes it difficult to give good advice to those who are learning... I'll try to be careful not to be too descriptive then! Big Smile

Kooyeen

Regards

Tanit

#476191 Tue, 12 Feb 08 07:25 PM

Kooyeen

As for using subject pronouns, I would never say "He's taller than I" ... and I believe practically no native speaker (American, at least) would ever say such sentences.

Hi K,

Thanks for you reply.
I can assure you I heard it in the UK, mainly from a couple of teachers at the University ... and they DON'T teach English Wink

(one taught "Transports" and the other one still teaches "Environmental Impacts Assessment" ... so they are NOT prescriptive grammarians!). They were well-educated native speakers, professors and researchers (so, well used to formal writing, which is something I'm interested in), and close to retiring age ... maybe this can explain.

Anyway, I'm interested also in prescriptive rules, so I'm looking forward to a reply to my question from a grammatical point of view.

Tanit

Joined on Mon, Jul 31 2006

In the middle of the Mediterranean Sea

Senior Member (2,143)

A man can do only what he can do. But if he does that each day he can sleep at night and do it again the next day. (A. Schweitzer)

Nouns, Pronouns, Universities

Yankee

#476194 Tue, 12 Feb 08 07:28 PM

Hi Tanit

"Grammatically correct" does not automatically mean that a usage will sound "natural" -- especially in informal English. This is especially true in sentences such as "It's me" or "That's him" or "He's taller than her". All of those sentences sound completely natural, but might be criticized as being "incorrect" or "overly informal" in a formal context.

You gave a very good example of how a sentence can become ambiguous when too much is omitted:
(a) I love her more than you.

Does that mean "I love her more than you love her"?
Or does that mean "I love her more than I love you"?

Sentence (a) is ambiguous because the word 'you' can be used as either an object or a subject. However, the next sentence should not be at all ambiguous:
(b) I love her more than him.

Technically speaking, sentence (b) can only mean "I love her more than I love him".

In informal English, however, it's possible that you might hear sentence (b) used to mean "I love her more than he loves her".

It would not surprise me at all to hear someone say "I have more money than him." Technically speaking, that is a grammatically incorrect sentence, but I don't think the meaning of that particular sentence is ambiguous. People would only understand that last sentence to mean "I have more money than he does." People would automatically reject a possible meaning of "I have more money than I have him" since that doesn't make any sense.

Does that answer your question?

Yankee

Joined on Sat, Apr 15 2006

Connecticut, USA

Senior Member (4,157)

Amy "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain

Grammar Geek

#476217 Tue, 12 Feb 08 08:35 PM

And taking advantage of this forum's tolerance for off-topic tangents, I want to know more about your Environmental Impact Assessments course, Tanit! Would you start a thread in Topic of the Moment if you think it will lead to more posts, or can you just let me know about it here?

Grammar Geek

Joined on Tue, Jan 10 2006

Pennsylvania, USA

Veteran Member (15,590)

Barbara, who answers in American English.

Newguest

#476223 Tue, 12 Feb 08 09:03 PM

Thank you for your all answers. They are quite helpful (:)) Smile

Newguest

Joined on Sun, Feb 25 2007

Contributing Member (1,076)

Tanit

#476889 Thu, 14 Feb 08 03:21 PM

Yankee

Does that answer your question?

Yes, I think it does. Let me try to recap and to make general statements (I know, this is pretty dangerous when talking about English grammar!)

If the verb is intransitive there's no ambiguity, irrespective of the pronoun used: the meaning of I run faster than he (form.); I run faster than him (inform.); I run faster than you is clear.
If the verb is transitive,

ambiguity certainly arises when the pronoun is "you" (eg. "I love her more than you") because we cannot differentiate subject and object (unless the context makes it clear which is which, as Kooyeen said);
if the pronoun is other than "you", strictly speaking there is no ambiguity (eg. "I love her more than he" is different from "I love her more than him"). However (in informal speaking only) me/him/her/us/them can replace I/he/she/we/they, which makes the sentence ambiguous again (I'm obviously not taking the context into account, and considering the sentence as a stand-alone).

Hope it's fine Smile

Thank you!

Tanit

English grammar, Grammar, Nouns, Pronouns, Verbs

Tanit

#476898 Thu, 14 Feb 08 03:48 PM

Grammar Geek
Would you start a thread in Topic of the Moment if you think it willlead to more posts, or can you just let me know about it here?

Hi Barbara,

I will! Would you like me to focus on something?

Tanit

Grammar

Anonymous

#485382 Wed, 05 Mar 08 07:56 PM

Hey Yankee,

Along the same line, do you have any idea on this type of structure:

He is taller than is she.

He runs faster than does she.

I've seen many times that in comparative sentences like above, the verb comes before the subject in the second part of the comparison. Is this grammatically correct?

Yipmun

Anonymous

Verbs

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