I used not to play football.

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CalifJim  #401335  Tue, 07 Aug 07 03:24 AM
Are you saying that the structure in the football example is not "used to", but is "used" (or used not)?
I'm saying that the structure is the whole thing, not just a word or two.

I |  used / decided / promised |  [(not) (to play football)].

It 'sounds wrong' because 'used' and 'to' have fused into the single word-like element 'yoostoo' in the minds of many speakers, and the 'not' splits it back into its components, so it feels like the 'yoostoo' is oddly missing.

If you're concentrating on the question of whether the modality or the residue is under the scope of the negation, then I'd have to say that the structural diagram I showed above goes with the version where the residue is negated. 

To construe I used not to play football as (containing) a  negation of the modality, as in the more usual I didn't use to play football, it would be necessary to work out a different structural diagram.  I think you'd have to argue that its analog is something like I haven't to play football, and that starts to get weird -- although somewhere in the back of my mind I vaguely remember reading the combination I usen't to ...

Or, if you're determined to have the negation of the modality, you could call it a one-of-a-kind pattern, appealing to the idea of 'idiom'.

On the other hand, conceptually, what's the difference if we talk about what we were in the habit of not doing or not in the habit of doing?  It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

CJ

  
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milky  #401383  Tue, 07 Aug 07 07:21 AM

<It 'sounds wrong' because 'used' and 'to' have fused into the single word-like element 'yoostoo' in the minds of many speakers, and the 'not' splits it back into its components, so it feels like the 'yoostoo' is oddly missing.>

When was the verbal phrase "used to" ever used as separate components, apart from in such examples as the football one? As far as I know, it as been around as a compound form since 14th century. So maybe it's a case of overcorrection, where speakers think that they can and should split "used to"  back into its components. Problem is, those components never existed separately, as far as I know. It's also like the case of splitting unsplittable phrasal verbs. Odd behaviour, IMO.

  
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milky  #401386  Tue, 07 Aug 07 07:32 AM

<I |  used / decided / promised |  [(not) (to play football)].>

So would you analyse this one in a similar way?

I am used not to playing football/?I am used not to play football.

And why, if the football example is a case of  splitting "used to" back into its components, don't we find that "be used not to" construction in the language?

  
milky  #401403  Tue, 07 Aug 07 08:19 AM

<although somewhere in the back of my mind I vaguely remember reading the combination I usen't to ....  >

Chambers says:

used to

There is often uncertainty about the correct negative form of used to. The following are all acceptable (note that when an auxiliary verb is used, it is did, not had):

He used not to do it.

He usedn't to do it.

He didn't use to do it.

The following are usually considered incorrect:

He usen't to do it.

He didn't used to do it.

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=used+to&title=21st

  
Linguaphile  #401647  Tue, 07 Aug 07 06:43 PM
 Milky wrote:

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query=used+to&title=21st

Vow! Milky. Chambers Online. I hadn't seen that before. Are there any other good dictionaries online apart from Longman, Cambridge, Oxford and the ones in "One Look"? I know this out of the topic. Sorry for that. Let me compensate. "Used to" forms have a logic in them.

I used to sing songs. / I usedn't to sing songs. / Used you to sing songs?

I used to sing songs. / I didn't use to sing songs. / Did you use to sing songs?

Like "need" and "dare" right? Are there any other to add to the group? 

  
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CalifJim  #401732  Tue, 07 Aug 07 10:12 PM

<although somewhere in the back of my mind I vaguely remember reading the combination I usen't to ....  >

Chambers says:

Aha.  That's it, then.  I must have read I usedn't to somewhere.

CJ

  
CalifJim  #401740  Tue, 07 Aug 07 10:29 PM
why, if the football example is a case of  splitting "used to" back into its components, don't we find that "be used not to" construction in the language?
Another mystery, eh?

But back to the original post:  At the end of that post was "I think not".  What is the grammatical justification for that?  It certainly looks a lot like "I used not".

CJ

  
milky  #401755  Tue, 07 Aug 07 11:35 PM
 CalifJim wrote:

<although somewhere in the back of my mind I vaguely remember reading the combination I usen't to ....  >

Chambers says:

Aha.  That's it, then.  I must have read I usedn't to somewhere.

CJ

I thought you said "I vaguely remember reading the combination I usen't to .... "

  
milky  #401756  Tue, 07 Aug 07 11:37 PM

 CalifJim wrote:
why, if the football example is a case of  splitting "used to" back into its components, don't we find that "be used not to" construction in the language?
Another mystery, eh?

But back to the original post:  At the end of that post was "I think not".  What is the grammatical justification for that?  It certainly looks a lot like "I used not".

CJ

For those who see the used of "used to" as a separate item it does.

  
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