MrPedantic  +  110428 Sun, 19 Jun 05 12:24 AM ...The older prescriptive grammars were simply wrong. Their analysis was wrong and the proof they offered was wrong. It was just one more rule that was wrong from the outset. The rule actually changed hundreds of years ago and yet these prescriptive grammars kept on misanalyzing this for centuries.... Were you referring to Lindley Murray's analysis of 'I wish I were/was', Katsu-san? Or Robert Lowth's? Or some other grammarian's? MrP MrPedantic Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004 Veteran Member 12,592 ...opella forensis / adducit febris...

	ranchhand  +  110497 Sun, 19 Jun 05 07:22 AM Paco wrote: If you restrict your search domain to ".edu", the result would be like this: "If I were you" 12,000 "If I was you" 689. I think people come here to learn the variety of English spoken by educated people. ================= The language scientists of the LGSWE spent ten long years studying, that's STUDYING these differences. In that book, one can find all sorts of differences wherein certain language/collocations are rarely used in one of the four registers; speech, academic prose, newspapers, or fiction It should be readily apparent to even the most casual observer that the language used within the realm of .edu would tend to be different from that used in other registers of English. Educated speakers know when to use 'was' and when to use 'were'. The language record clearly shows this. ranchhand Joined on Sun, May 15 2005 Junior Member 81

	MrPedantic  +  110512 Sun, 19 Jun 05 08:40 AM Hello Ranchhand Maybe you can help. I suppose you don't by any chance have a copy of Murray's or Lowth's grammars, do you? Post:110488 MrP MrPedantic

	Roro  +  110514 Sun, 19 Jun 05 08:42 AM Hello ranchhand. May I ask you a little question? Just out of curiosity. I've been following your discussion with interest, but now I suddenly realized that I don't understand the difference between the two sentences, in the first place...! (1) I wish I were there. (2) I wish I was there. What kind of nuances...? How would you put it, for example, ranchhand? Of formality? or hypotheticality, so to speak? Thank you, in advance. Roro Joined on Mon, Apr 11 2005 Regular Member 581 Difference Between

	paco2004  +  110666 Sun, 19 Jun 05 07:44 PM RH, Educated speakers know when to use 'was' and when to use 'were'. You seem to have added this part on the edition. Right? I think this is a good point. I agree if we have a lot of time it would be better for us to learn many varieties of English and use them correctly according to occasions. The problem is not whether the grammar of a saying is prescriptive or descriptive. The problem is what variety we have to learn as the first choice when we are too busy to learn many varieties. I think the choice will depend on what purpose learners are learning English for, and so the right of choice should be given to learners. And so, if I were a native speaker and wanted to be a good teacher in the forum like here, I would advise a questioner what variety is used in what TPO (timing, place, occasion). paco paco2004 Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004 Senior Member 4,095 In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English. Grammar, Learning English

	MrPedantic  +  110683 Sun, 19 Jun 05 11:43 PM ...Educated speakers know when to use 'was' and when to use 'were'. I'm interested in this comment, because it implies that an 'educated person' (whatever that means) will sometimes say 'I wish I was', and sometimes 'I wish I were'. For instance, if he were writing a private email, he might say 'I wish I was'; whereas if he were writing a dissertation, he would say 'I wish I were'. (RH suggests that the phrase would be unusual in a formal document; but for the sake of this example, let's posit a chronically insecure dissertation-writer, who begins his opus with the comment: 'I wish I were more confident about the basis of the theory I am about to propose...') I don't say it's impossible, or even improbable; not at all. But I'd be interested to know whether anyone would deliberately drop their register in this way; or whether it would (for most educated people) be an unconscious process. What was your implication here, RH? Would you say that the double register is deliberately applied? Or a largely unconscious phenomenon? MrP MrPedantic

	Philip  +  111651 Thu, 23 Jun 05 03:29 AM Contrary-to-fact statements require the subjunctive in several languages. "Were", for the singular, in this case, is the subjunctive of the standard English of scores of years ago. Some people don't know about it, so it is ignored. "Stuffy" speakers of today still say, "Were I you, I wouldn't do that" [perfect example of subjunctive], and they would never say, "Was I you..... I don't get too upset when the subjunctive is not used, but I don't like people to use it when a regular indicative mood is needed: ("I didn't know if he were coming or not" isn't a case of contrary to fact - it's a simple if-clause and needs the indicative 'was'). Most people who react to the non- or the mis-use of the subjunctive, largely no longer used in modern American English, have studied other Indo-European languages which still use it faithfully, diligently, emphatically, unmistakenly. In fact, most speakers of those languages don't even know the "rules" which govern its use....they just 'know' it's right. Philip Joined on Thu, Jun 23 2005 Veteran Member 8,738 At reise er at leve! - H. C. Andersen Subjunctives, Clauses, American English

	katsudon  +  113166 Tue, 28 Jun 05 07:38 AM Philip wrote: Some people don't know about it, so it is ignored. K: This is something that is not possible, Philip. Every speaker of English is familiar with both forms. It's abundantly clear that the rules of English are not guided by what 'stuffy' speakers use. P: the subjunctive, largely no longer used in modern American English, K: This is untrue. The use of subjunctive 'were' is alive and well in AmE. P: ... have studied other Indo-European languages which still use it faithfully, diligently, emphatically, unmistakenly. In fact, most speakers of those languages don't even know the "rules" which govern its use....they just 'know' it's right. K: What some have them have not learned in their studies is that the rules for other languages do not govern English. katsudon Joined on Fri, Jun 10 2005 Junior Member 53 Subjunctives, American English

	Philip  +  113341 Tue, 28 Jun 05 04:21 PM Every speaker? You are in a much more sophisticated crowd than I am. I'm sure many people who hear it understand it, but they certainly don't use it themselves. I used 'stuffy' to note the extreme. Those who study other languages learn about it and then recognize it in English (17 years of being educated, 30 years of educating: I never heard about it in public schools). I think you misinterpreted everything I said and responded just for the sake of argument. On a lighter note: Several of us (all of whom had studied a f.l. in which the subjunctive is regularly used) once considered starting up the SPUSAE (Society for the Presevation of the Use of the Subjunctive in American English); it never got off the ground. Philip Whom, Subjunctives, American English